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welcome to tales from the rabbit hole my

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guest today is jason colavito a uh a

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journalist who has written

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extensively on a topic that i'm quite

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interested myself the topic of ufos

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and he recently wrote an article called

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how washington got hooked on flying

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saucers

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a collection of well-funded ufo

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obsessives are using their capitol hill

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connections to launder some utre and

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potentially dangerous

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ideas which was a fascinating read and

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uh

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what i'd like to do is go over this so

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uh jason welcome to

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uh tales from the rabbit hole well

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thanks for having me it's great to be

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here

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yeah your article is very interesting

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and i think it's something that's kind

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of lacking from

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the discussion that people have about

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this kind of

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current ufo uap story and that's the

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historical context

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um how did you start researching this

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aspect of it

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well this is something i kind of fell

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into

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more or less by accident for the last

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couple of decades actually i've been

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interested in

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the ancient astronaut theory and the

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related ideas about space aliens coming

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to earth in ancient times and what have

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you

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and because of that i have been

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on the edges of the whole ufo uap

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discussion

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uh where the ancient astronaut stuff

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crosses over into ufo

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speculation and what happened is that

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some of the people who were involved

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with

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the ufo uap thing were also people who

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were involved with ancient astronaut

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ideas specifically

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jacques valet who's famous for his book

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passport to begonia

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uh in there he talks about um

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the connections of the parallels between

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space alien encounters

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and mythology and legends from

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historical and medieval times and anyway

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the long and short of it is that because

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some of the same people cross over

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between the two different

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uh areas i sort of fell into

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investigating the uh to the stars

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academy of arts and sciences people who

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were also some of the same who were

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involved with the ancient astronaut and

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other speculation

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and uh the crossover is what led me to

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look into the history of

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the ufo flap that we're looking at right

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now

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yeah it's all very interesting and i

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think uh something that people

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miss is that uh it's a relatively small

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number of people

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that are involved uh you know in your

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article you do actually touch on

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a lot of people but in the grand scheme

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of things there's not that many and

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there's these common threads that have

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been running through

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uh these ufo stories for for many many

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years

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and it's kind of fascinating just how

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long some of these people have been

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around

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and are still talking about it

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well that is it is really amazing

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because you know we

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the united states has 320 million people

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in it

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and somehow the ufo issue it comes down

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to the same

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20 or 30 people over and over again and

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it's

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amazing to think that the same people

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who are looking into ufos in the 1960s

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and 70s

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are the same people who are still behind

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the current ufo flap today

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and what makes that especially amazing

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is that all of them talk about how

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um answers are right around the corner

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if only we do

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x y and z and you know for 50 something

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years they've been doing x y and z and

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it produced no results

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but this time they swear is going to be

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different

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yeah that's always something that amazes

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me when i look back at

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the history of ufos like personally i've

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i've just been

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got into it recently with all the the

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video analysis that i've been doing

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but then people encourage me to read

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older accounts and so i go back to these

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these accounts from the 1950s and even

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the 1940s

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and if you read the press coverage back

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then

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it's it's remarkable how similar it is

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to what's going on now it's all your

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government what does the government know

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about flying sources yeah

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inquiry minds wanting to know it is yeah

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it's almost identical

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i have been working on a new book that

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is going to impart

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cover up some of this early ufo stuff

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from the 1940s and 50s

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so i've also been reading a lot of that

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and it's just the same thing

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over and over again and even the kinds

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of encounters that are supposedly

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you know the shocking new thing is

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exactly the same

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as the same kinds of evidence well it's

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pilot testimony

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it's radar evidence it's this one and

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that

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it's you know the same thing over and

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over and each and every time

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eventually investigators go through it

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and find out what really happened and

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how people misunderstood what they were

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seeing

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um and what they were interpreting the

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data to say

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at the time and somehow each time these

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flaps happen and they happen with

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startling regularity every usually about

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every 20 years

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each and every time this happens they

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act like

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there's no history behind it that we

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haven't been through this before

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and you know it would really be

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beneficial to everybody to maybe have a

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historical perspective to look at this

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and say

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well the last five times this happened

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we later discovered it was

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this problem or this problem or we

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didn't understand this or misperceived

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that

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point instead of the end point

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so that we kind of circumvent the whole

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process of oh my god space aliens are

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invading us

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before we get to the oh well maybe we

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should check on this this and this

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before

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we decide the aliens are here yeah

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you're going to learn from history and

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this is you know something obviously

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that people

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talk about it's like we get a new

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generation it's kind of strange really

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because we're getting

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new generations these young guns of

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ufology but we're also got the old guard

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as well

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who are who are being uh

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involved in the same thing and they're

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kind of like uh you know repeating the

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same thing with the new people

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so let's let's learn from history let's

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uh let's go back to uh

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you know what you describe in your

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article and you you start

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in 1996 uh with jay allen heineck

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and oh sorry 1966 yes

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1966 uh jay allen heineck now jaylen

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heilig was an interesting character

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because

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i think at one point he was a skeptic of

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the whole ufo thing and then he kind of

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transitioned and you talk about him

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talking to jacques valle what what

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happened there with him and jack belay

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well it was uh during the time of the

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condom committee

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the um big air force university of

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colorado study that was going to

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determine whether there was any sort of

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uh national security threat behind ufo

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sightings

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and both heineken and valet were asked

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to

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speak with the committee so they had

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flown out to colorado to talk with them

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and give their evidence

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for the ufos and on the way back

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uh delay and heineken got to talking

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and heinek admitted that while he played

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the materialist and scientist for the

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public

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behind the scenes he wasn't exactly uh

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strictly

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according to the scientific method he

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had a very strong interest in the occult

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and from his earliest days he had been

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really interested in this sort of

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immaterial

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psychical world beyond the uh material

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plane

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in fact he told a story later to valet

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that

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when he was a kid all the other

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teenagers were saving up money to buy

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motorcycles and he saved up a hundred

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dollars which in those days was a huge

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amount of money

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so that he could buy a book of occultism

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and learn about

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for a hundred dollars for a hundred

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dollars yes it was uh

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manly hall secret teachings of all ages

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it was a huge self-published book of

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the occult and uh it was

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wickedly expensive back then i mean 100

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bucks back in the 1930s was like

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1000 something dollars today yeah that's

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crazy and he saved up that money to buy

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that book

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and it was a huge influence on him

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because he was um

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very deeply involved with this idea that

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somewhere beyond the material plane

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there was this

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immaterial psychical realm that might be

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impugning on

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our reality and while in practical terms

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that didn't necessarily mean that he was

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skewing his science to go all occult

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it did mean however that when he started

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to think about what ufos could be

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or might be he did have this

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concept in the back of his mind that

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they might not be material

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that they might not be nuts and bolts um

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alien spacecraft for example

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and one of the things that he and valet

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spent

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many years in the late 60s and mid 70s

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debating is whether they could be

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psychical phenomena

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in other words um they were interested

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in whether they were

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closely related to poltergeists uh that

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was the one that both valet and heineck

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were

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very interested in because they thought

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that poltergeist phenomena

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had a lot of similarities to ufos the

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people who see poltergeists and the

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people who see ufos

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both tended to have the same reactions

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to them and to demonstrate the same kind

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of

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mental phenomena so to speak um

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interesting yeah well the idea was back

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then was

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that the people who were seeing

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poltergeists tended to be more sensitive

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more open to things what we would

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today probably term a uh fantasy prone

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personalities

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and um what

288
00:09:59,990 --> 00:09:58,959
they saw in the connection was that

289
00:10:03,190 --> 00:10:00,000
poltergeists

290
00:10:05,509 --> 00:10:03,200
had um physical manifestation

291
00:10:06,790 --> 00:10:05,519
in one sense because people believe that

292
00:10:09,110 --> 00:10:06,800
poltergeists being

293
00:10:10,630 --> 00:10:09,120
ghosts that were able to move objects

294
00:10:11,190 --> 00:10:10,640
could you know throw a book across a

295
00:10:13,430 --> 00:10:11,200
room

296
00:10:14,470 --> 00:10:13,440
could cause electrical phenomena and so

297
00:10:17,590 --> 00:10:14,480
on

298
00:10:17,990 --> 00:10:17,600
and they were also supernatural because

299
00:10:22,230 --> 00:10:18,000
they

300
00:10:24,470 --> 00:10:22,240
weren't

301
00:10:25,269 --> 00:10:24,480
physical objects that had mass and

302
00:10:27,590 --> 00:10:25,279
matter

303
00:10:30,150 --> 00:10:27,600
and yet they were having a physical

304
00:10:32,069 --> 00:10:30,160
impact on the environment around them

305
00:10:33,590 --> 00:10:32,079
so in the mind of poltergeist

306
00:10:37,750 --> 00:10:33,600
researchers

307
00:10:41,509 --> 00:10:37,760
the poltergeists were both supernatural

308
00:10:42,870 --> 00:10:41,519
and had a material impact on this plane

309
00:10:44,949 --> 00:10:42,880
and so what heineken valley were

310
00:10:47,509 --> 00:10:44,959
interested in is the question of whether

311
00:10:48,790 --> 00:10:47,519
the poltergeist phenomenon could be said

312
00:10:51,829 --> 00:10:48,800
to be parallel to

313
00:10:54,630 --> 00:10:51,839
or even part of the ufo phenomena so

314
00:10:56,389 --> 00:10:54,640
that ufos were somehow or another

315
00:10:58,230 --> 00:10:56,399
these immaterial objects that were

316
00:10:59,750 --> 00:10:58,240
coming from either another plane or

317
00:11:02,150 --> 00:10:59,760
another dimension

318
00:11:04,230 --> 00:11:02,160
popping into ours having a physical

319
00:11:06,630 --> 00:11:04,240
interaction with ours

320
00:11:08,710 --> 00:11:06,640
while not themselves being physical and

321
00:11:10,230 --> 00:11:08,720
then sort of dissolving back where they

322
00:11:12,790 --> 00:11:10,240
came from

323
00:11:14,150 --> 00:11:12,800
so that was where they started to go and

324
00:11:16,150 --> 00:11:14,160
you know heineken even gave a speech

325
00:11:18,069 --> 00:11:16,160
about it to a psychical research

326
00:11:19,509 --> 00:11:18,079
organization so it's not like this was

327
00:11:21,509 --> 00:11:19,519
hidden but he didn't

328
00:11:23,269 --> 00:11:21,519
really publicize it because he knew that

329
00:11:26,470 --> 00:11:23,279
if the media got wind that

330
00:11:29,030 --> 00:11:26,480
he was talking about psychic ufo

331
00:11:29,750 --> 00:11:29,040
ufos popping in from another dimension

332
00:11:31,190 --> 00:11:29,760
that you know

333
00:11:32,870 --> 00:11:31,200
he'd be labeled crazy along with

334
00:11:34,710 --> 00:11:32,880
everybody else who was uh

335
00:11:36,230 --> 00:11:34,720
talking about alien abductions and anal

336
00:11:39,350 --> 00:11:36,240
probes and what have you

337
00:11:42,389 --> 00:11:39,360
and he wanted to keep his ufo research

338
00:11:42,790 --> 00:11:42,399
serious sober ufo research as opposed to

339
00:11:46,710 --> 00:11:42,800
you know

340
00:11:48,870 --> 00:11:46,720
the psychic aliens and yeah

341
00:11:50,069 --> 00:11:48,880
more or less crazy stuff so and at that

342
00:11:52,949 --> 00:11:50,079
time both uh

343
00:11:53,670 --> 00:11:52,959
valet and and heineck were kind of doing

344
00:11:55,350 --> 00:11:53,680
work

345
00:11:56,949 --> 00:11:55,360
for like government investigations and

346
00:11:59,110 --> 00:11:56,959
things like that like project blue book

347
00:12:01,829 --> 00:11:59,120
with heineken and then later valet was

348
00:12:02,710 --> 00:12:01,839
was doing uh was working for the

349
00:12:05,910 --> 00:12:02,720
government in some

350
00:12:08,710 --> 00:12:05,920
capacity is that true um

351
00:12:10,150 --> 00:12:08,720
to my uh recollection i don't recall

352
00:12:12,310 --> 00:12:10,160
jacquesville a working director

353
00:12:14,310 --> 00:12:12,320
of the federal government behind it was

354
00:12:17,430 --> 00:12:14,320
had worked with project blue book

355
00:12:20,790 --> 00:12:17,440
until the end of project blue book but

356
00:12:21,990 --> 00:12:20,800
both heineken valet were in close

357
00:12:25,269 --> 00:12:22,000
connection with

358
00:12:26,710 --> 00:12:25,279
the researchers of the stanford research

359
00:12:28,710 --> 00:12:26,720
institute who were

360
00:12:30,389 --> 00:12:28,720
doing work um on contract for the

361
00:12:32,870 --> 00:12:30,399
government with uh

362
00:12:33,750 --> 00:12:32,880
psychic phenomena okay one of the people

363
00:12:37,670 --> 00:12:33,760
that they

364
00:12:38,790 --> 00:12:37,680
worked with was hail put off and he was

365
00:12:41,110 --> 00:12:38,800
um

366
00:12:43,190 --> 00:12:41,120
very much into the whole question of

367
00:12:45,990 --> 00:12:43,200
psychics and psychic powers

368
00:12:46,629 --> 00:12:46,000
he had researched gary geller and the

369
00:12:49,829 --> 00:12:46,639
famous

370
00:12:52,069 --> 00:12:49,839
uh psychic spoonbender and he was a

371
00:12:53,829 --> 00:12:52,079
strong advocate of gary geller and

372
00:12:55,990 --> 00:12:53,839
truly believe that yuri geller had

373
00:12:57,190 --> 00:12:56,000
psychic powers and could bend spoons

374
00:12:59,990 --> 00:12:57,200
with his mind

375
00:13:01,509 --> 00:13:00,000
and because they um were all friends

376
00:13:04,949 --> 00:13:01,519
with one another

377
00:13:06,230 --> 00:13:04,959
it sort of filtered in through heineken

378
00:13:07,990 --> 00:13:06,240
valet to

379
00:13:10,310 --> 00:13:08,000
put off into the people that he came to

380
00:13:12,069 --> 00:13:10,320
be uh to work with

381
00:13:13,350 --> 00:13:12,079
this idea that there was a connection

382
00:13:15,910 --> 00:13:13,360
between ufos

383
00:13:17,269 --> 00:13:15,920
and psychic phenomena and now one of the

384
00:13:19,990 --> 00:13:17,279
interesting things is that

385
00:13:20,470 --> 00:13:20,000
the government was actually interested

386
00:13:23,190 --> 00:13:20,480
in this

387
00:13:24,550 --> 00:13:23,200
psychic research for a variety of

388
00:13:26,629 --> 00:13:24,560
historical reasons

389
00:13:28,230 --> 00:13:26,639
none of which were very good the long

390
00:13:30,790 --> 00:13:28,240
and short of it being that they thought

391
00:13:34,230 --> 00:13:30,800
the soviets were using psychic spies

392
00:13:35,750 --> 00:13:34,240
to monitor america's uh nuclear arsenal

393
00:13:39,350 --> 00:13:35,760
and our defense industry

394
00:13:41,910 --> 00:13:39,360
right by uh training psychics in russia

395
00:13:44,550 --> 00:13:41,920
to use their mental projection to see

396
00:13:46,310 --> 00:13:44,560
what was going on inside our facilities

397
00:13:48,150 --> 00:13:46,320
and this is the real thing isn't it this

398
00:13:51,750 --> 00:13:48,160
is this is something that's documented

399
00:13:54,470 --> 00:13:51,760
and we we know that it actually happened

400
00:13:56,389 --> 00:13:54,480
yeah it was called project stargate and

401
00:13:58,150 --> 00:13:56,399
a whole lot of files related to it uh

402
00:14:00,629 --> 00:13:58,160
from the cia and defense department were

403
00:14:02,389 --> 00:14:00,639
declassified a couple of decades ago

404
00:14:04,310 --> 00:14:02,399
and they're all available online you can

405
00:14:05,030 --> 00:14:04,320
go and look at them anytime you like but

406
00:14:06,710 --> 00:14:05,040
uh

407
00:14:09,829 --> 00:14:06,720
they really do believe in this sort of

408
00:14:10,790 --> 00:14:09,839
thing the film men who stare at goats uh

409
00:14:12,550 --> 00:14:10,800
that's kind of based

410
00:14:14,150 --> 00:14:12,560
on that i mean it's not entirely a work

411
00:14:15,509 --> 00:14:14,160
of fiction it's actually kind of based

412
00:14:17,750 --> 00:14:15,519
on a true story

413
00:14:19,509 --> 00:14:17,760
oh yeah that was all part of it you know

414
00:14:21,750 --> 00:14:19,519
at the time the government was into all

415
00:14:24,710 --> 00:14:21,760
sorts of very strange things

416
00:14:26,790 --> 00:14:24,720
you know the us congress for example

417
00:14:29,110 --> 00:14:26,800
contacted the cia repeatedly

418
00:14:31,670 --> 00:14:29,120
over the course of the 1970s and 80s and

419
00:14:33,910 --> 00:14:31,680
asked them to use spy satellites to find

420
00:14:36,389 --> 00:14:33,920
noah's ark

421
00:14:37,430 --> 00:14:36,399
the government has really elements

422
00:14:38,150 --> 00:14:37,440
within the government have believed

423
00:14:44,150 --> 00:14:38,160
people

424
00:14:44,629 --> 00:14:44,160
usually it's individuals but have used

425
00:14:47,910 --> 00:14:44,639
the

426
00:14:51,030 --> 00:14:47,920
all sorts of uh

427
00:14:51,670 --> 00:14:51,040
things that we would objectively

428
00:14:54,629 --> 00:14:51,680
consider

429
00:14:55,030 --> 00:14:54,639
highly unlikely yeah so you know ufos

430
00:14:57,750 --> 00:14:55,040
which

431
00:15:01,509 --> 00:14:57,760
were just one of many different things

432
00:15:04,389 --> 00:15:01,519
but in the case of the psychic phenomena

433
00:15:06,230 --> 00:15:04,399
not only did the government pursue this

434
00:15:09,269 --> 00:15:06,240
idea that

435
00:15:12,389 --> 00:15:09,279
psychic spies could be used to look into

436
00:15:14,949 --> 00:15:12,399
russian assets they some of those

437
00:15:16,310 --> 00:15:14,959
psychic sessions you know turned into

438
00:15:19,590 --> 00:15:16,320
ancient astronaut hunts

439
00:15:22,710 --> 00:15:19,600
in one um one file that was released

440
00:15:25,990 --> 00:15:22,720
a cia handler had

441
00:15:29,430 --> 00:15:26,000
a remote viewer and they

442
00:15:31,509 --> 00:15:29,440
went back in time one million years

443
00:15:34,949 --> 00:15:31,519
to probe martian civilization and

444
00:15:37,030 --> 00:15:34,959
commune with ancient martians

445
00:15:39,189 --> 00:15:37,040
you know this is federal government yeah

446
00:15:40,389 --> 00:15:39,199
yeah this was funded by the federal

447
00:15:42,069 --> 00:15:40,399
government and

448
00:15:43,430 --> 00:15:42,079
someone obviously pushed for this this

449
00:15:44,550 --> 00:15:43,440
research to happen because people

450
00:15:46,310 --> 00:15:44,560
believed

451
00:15:48,310 --> 00:15:46,320
that these things were real some people

452
00:15:50,470 --> 00:15:48,320
within within the government

453
00:15:51,670 --> 00:15:50,480
yes they're you know you have to

454
00:15:53,590 --> 00:15:51,680
remember that

455
00:15:54,870 --> 00:15:53,600
in the middle 20th century the cia was

456
00:15:57,350 --> 00:15:54,880
into all sorts of

457
00:15:59,189 --> 00:15:57,360
bizarre things so while this seems

458
00:16:00,870 --> 00:15:59,199
strange it's part of a continuum with

459
00:16:02,870 --> 00:16:00,880
the same cia that was

460
00:16:04,629 --> 00:16:02,880
strapping bombs to cats and creating

461
00:16:06,150 --> 00:16:04,639
exploding cigars and all the other

462
00:16:08,629 --> 00:16:06,160
bizarre things that

463
00:16:10,150 --> 00:16:08,639
in retrospect pretty obviously we're

464
00:16:14,150 --> 00:16:10,160
never going to work

465
00:16:16,949 --> 00:16:14,160
yeah but you know at the time

466
00:16:18,470 --> 00:16:16,959
they had a much broader idea of what was

467
00:16:21,030 --> 00:16:18,480
plausible than

468
00:16:22,710 --> 00:16:21,040
i think many of us would today yeah it's

469
00:16:23,910 --> 00:16:22,720
fascinating and obviously a lot of this

470
00:16:25,990 --> 00:16:23,920
still resonates uh

471
00:16:26,949 --> 00:16:26,000
to today and we see this this type of

472
00:16:29,829 --> 00:16:26,959
thing being

473
00:16:30,710 --> 00:16:29,839
repeated to a certain degree uh and the

474
00:16:32,230 --> 00:16:30,720
people you mention

475
00:16:34,150 --> 00:16:32,240
you know they're still around obviously

476
00:16:36,550 --> 00:16:34,160
jacques vallee uh he was

477
00:16:37,990 --> 00:16:36,560
i just saw him interviewed about this

478
00:16:41,430 --> 00:16:38,000
whole thing recently and and hal

479
00:16:43,110 --> 00:16:41,440
put off has been part of of the whole

480
00:16:44,710 --> 00:16:43,120
uh recent stuff i think he was doing

481
00:16:46,629 --> 00:16:44,720
some work with with tom delong

482
00:16:48,629 --> 00:16:46,639
so yeah even though what we're talking

483
00:16:50,710 --> 00:16:48,639
about yeah he's

484
00:16:52,550 --> 00:16:50,720
uh he was a has been a major figure in

485
00:16:55,110 --> 00:16:52,560
that for uh

486
00:16:57,269 --> 00:16:55,120
many many decades not only was he part

487
00:16:59,829 --> 00:16:57,279
of that remote viewing psychic stuff

488
00:17:01,269 --> 00:16:59,839
but he moved on to work with robert

489
00:17:04,789 --> 00:17:01,279
bigelow

490
00:17:05,350 --> 00:17:04,799
the uh very wealthy eccentric hotelier

491
00:17:07,350 --> 00:17:05,360
who

492
00:17:09,669 --> 00:17:07,360
started an aerospace company to pursue

493
00:17:11,990 --> 00:17:09,679
his interest in the paranormal

494
00:17:12,710 --> 00:17:12,000
he um was deeply interested in space

495
00:17:14,630 --> 00:17:12,720
aliens

496
00:17:15,990 --> 00:17:14,640
in life after death and the occult and

497
00:17:18,630 --> 00:17:16,000
all that sort of thing

498
00:17:20,069 --> 00:17:18,640
and put off work with him to investigate

499
00:17:23,590 --> 00:17:20,079
uh space aliens

500
00:17:27,110 --> 00:17:23,600
uh werewolves skin walkers

501
00:17:29,830 --> 00:17:27,120
um space was dimensions

502
00:17:30,870 --> 00:17:29,840
when was that approximately that was in

503
00:17:33,830 --> 00:17:30,880
the

504
00:17:35,590 --> 00:17:33,840
early night early to mid 1990s early 90s

505
00:17:37,350 --> 00:17:35,600
yeah so it's still a long time ago it's

506
00:17:38,310 --> 00:17:37,360
you know this is this is still history

507
00:17:38,789 --> 00:17:38,320
you know we're talking about stuff that

508
00:17:42,150 --> 00:17:38,799
started

509
00:17:45,270 --> 00:17:42,160
in the 1960s and 70s

510
00:17:48,070 --> 00:17:45,280
that that um that relationship

511
00:17:49,909 --> 00:17:48,080
formed the core of what became the

512
00:17:51,669 --> 00:17:49,919
pentagon's ufo program

513
00:17:54,390 --> 00:17:51,679
right and that's because robert bigelow

514
00:17:55,190 --> 00:17:54,400
was the guy who called up harry reid and

515
00:17:58,230 --> 00:17:55,200
said

516
00:18:01,270 --> 00:17:58,240
more or less that he wanted funding

517
00:18:02,470 --> 00:18:01,280
to go study um the space ghosts and the

518
00:18:05,830 --> 00:18:02,480
space spooks at his

519
00:18:07,110 --> 00:18:05,840
skinwalker ranch in utah and harry reid

520
00:18:10,470 --> 00:18:07,120
said yes

521
00:18:13,590 --> 00:18:10,480
you know uh bigelow and his ranch

522
00:18:15,510 --> 00:18:13,600
had spent years with a team of

523
00:18:16,470 --> 00:18:15,520
scientists led by help put off and some

524
00:18:19,270 --> 00:18:16,480
other people who

525
00:18:20,310 --> 00:18:19,280
are still the same ones looking at stuff

526
00:18:22,789 --> 00:18:20,320
stuff today

527
00:18:23,830 --> 00:18:22,799
but they had spent years hunting down

528
00:18:27,110 --> 00:18:23,840
what they thought were

529
00:18:28,230 --> 00:18:27,120
interdimensional portals where space

530
00:18:30,070 --> 00:18:28,240
aliens or

531
00:18:32,070 --> 00:18:30,080
space poltergeists or what have you were

532
00:18:33,270 --> 00:18:32,080
leaking through from the sky to another

533
00:18:34,870 --> 00:18:33,280
dimension

534
00:18:37,110 --> 00:18:34,880
and somehow or another they actually

535
00:18:39,270 --> 00:18:37,120
convinced a scientist

536
00:18:40,630 --> 00:18:39,280
from the defense intelligence agency

537
00:18:42,230 --> 00:18:40,640
that this really happened

538
00:18:44,549 --> 00:18:42,240
and that they had found a portal to

539
00:18:48,789 --> 00:18:44,559
another dimension or whatever

540
00:18:50,310 --> 00:18:48,799
and the dia began to investigate

541
00:18:52,549 --> 00:18:50,320
and they actually decided they were

542
00:18:55,350 --> 00:18:52,559
going to work with bigelow at skinwalker

543
00:18:57,430 --> 00:18:55,360
ranch to hunt space spooks

544
00:18:59,190 --> 00:18:57,440
and because of that bigelow is able to

545
00:19:00,310 --> 00:18:59,200
take that relationship and go to harry

546
00:19:01,430 --> 00:19:00,320
reid and say hey this is what we're

547
00:19:03,510 --> 00:19:01,440
doing now

548
00:19:04,950 --> 00:19:03,520
give us money so we can do this formally

549
00:19:06,950 --> 00:19:04,960
as part of a

550
00:19:09,270 --> 00:19:06,960
broader program investigating

551
00:19:11,590 --> 00:19:09,280
unexplained aerial phenomena

552
00:19:13,750 --> 00:19:11,600
and harry reid and two other senators

553
00:19:16,070 --> 00:19:13,760
agreed to do that

554
00:19:18,230 --> 00:19:16,080
and what's interesting about that is

555
00:19:19,909 --> 00:19:18,240
that they're retroactively casting this

556
00:19:22,390 --> 00:19:19,919
as a ufo program

557
00:19:24,710 --> 00:19:22,400
but it wasn't a ufo program that started

558
00:19:26,230 --> 00:19:24,720
it was a program to hunt poltergeists

559
00:19:27,990 --> 00:19:26,240
from another dimension

560
00:19:30,950 --> 00:19:28,000
and it sounds ridiculous and it is

561
00:19:33,750 --> 00:19:30,960
ridiculous but it's what they were doing

562
00:19:34,870 --> 00:19:33,760
yeah it's watching it now and saying oh

563
00:19:36,549 --> 00:19:34,880
well it was always about these

564
00:19:38,470 --> 00:19:36,559
unexplained aerial phenomena that could

565
00:19:40,549 --> 00:19:38,480
be a national security threat

566
00:19:41,669 --> 00:19:40,559
except when they started they were

567
00:19:43,669 --> 00:19:41,679
hunting down

568
00:19:45,430 --> 00:19:43,679
interdimensional beings and where

569
00:19:46,870 --> 00:19:45,440
werewolves and skin walkers and what

570
00:19:49,190 --> 00:19:46,880
have you

571
00:19:51,909 --> 00:19:49,200
and we can see that in the report that

572
00:19:53,909 --> 00:19:51,919
robert bigelow's team filed

573
00:19:55,029 --> 00:19:53,919
during this initial program that harry

574
00:19:56,870 --> 00:19:55,039
reid funded

575
00:19:58,549 --> 00:19:56,880
and in that report they talk about other

576
00:20:01,270 --> 00:19:58,559
dimensions they talk about

577
00:20:02,470 --> 00:20:01,280
alien implants they talk about whether

578
00:20:05,510 --> 00:20:02,480
space alien

579
00:20:08,710 --> 00:20:05,520
encounters cause health effects

580
00:20:10,230 --> 00:20:08,720
that impact uh human health and

581
00:20:12,470 --> 00:20:10,240
they go into all of this weird and

582
00:20:13,430 --> 00:20:12,480
bizarre stuff in fact in the new yorker

583
00:20:16,149 --> 00:20:13,440
article about it

584
00:20:17,110 --> 00:20:16,159
one of the defense uh officials actually

585
00:20:18,950 --> 00:20:17,120
says

586
00:20:20,149 --> 00:20:18,960
in there well we knew when we read it we

587
00:20:21,270 --> 00:20:20,159
can't release this it would be a

588
00:20:24,070 --> 00:20:21,280
disaster

589
00:20:25,270 --> 00:20:24,080
and that's because it's just so very

590
00:20:27,909 --> 00:20:25,280
strange

591
00:20:29,909 --> 00:20:27,919
and what happens is that program gets

592
00:20:31,430 --> 00:20:29,919
sort of filed and filtered down into

593
00:20:33,270 --> 00:20:31,440
well we were looking at unexplained

594
00:20:35,430 --> 00:20:33,280
aerial phenomena

595
00:20:36,950 --> 00:20:35,440
and they leave out all the weird stuff

596
00:20:37,750 --> 00:20:36,960
in order to make it sound more serious

597
00:20:39,430 --> 00:20:37,760
and sober

598
00:20:40,789 --> 00:20:39,440
in fact ralph blumenthal the new york

599
00:20:43,029 --> 00:20:40,799
times reporter

600
00:20:44,310 --> 00:20:43,039
who uh broke the story of the pentagon

601
00:20:48,630 --> 00:20:44,320
ufo program in

602
00:20:51,110 --> 00:20:48,640
2017 he actually admitted recently that

603
00:20:52,710 --> 00:20:51,120
you know they purposely kind of shaped

604
00:20:56,070 --> 00:20:52,720
the narrative

605
00:20:58,390 --> 00:20:56,080
to focus on the ufo program and

606
00:20:59,750 --> 00:20:58,400
not all of the other weird stuff because

607
00:21:00,630 --> 00:20:59,760
they didn't think that new york times

608
00:21:03,669 --> 00:21:00,640
readers

609
00:21:04,789 --> 00:21:03,679
would accept the broader weirder part

610
00:21:06,710 --> 00:21:04,799
and you know that's one of those things

611
00:21:07,990 --> 00:21:06,720
where you have to say if you're shaping

612
00:21:09,510 --> 00:21:08,000
the narrative because you don't think

613
00:21:11,830 --> 00:21:09,520
your readers will believe it

614
00:21:13,430 --> 00:21:11,840
maybe you ought to step back and say

615
00:21:14,630 --> 00:21:13,440
what the heck's going on here we ought

616
00:21:16,549 --> 00:21:14,640
to be telling them

617
00:21:18,070 --> 00:21:16,559
they're doing this weird stuff and we

618
00:21:20,390 --> 00:21:18,080
really ought to think about

619
00:21:22,149 --> 00:21:20,400
hey maybe hunting space ghosts on the

620
00:21:24,630 --> 00:21:22,159
taxpayers dime

621
00:21:26,149 --> 00:21:24,640
needs a little bit of a rethink yeah

622
00:21:27,350 --> 00:21:26,159
yeah i think uh

623
00:21:28,470 --> 00:21:27,360
yeah this this kind of shaping the

624
00:21:29,190 --> 00:21:28,480
narrative is something that's happened

625
00:21:33,029 --> 00:21:29,200
quite a lot

626
00:21:36,149 --> 00:21:33,039
and in one small aspect of that is

627
00:21:37,430 --> 00:21:36,159
bigelow's involvement with the faa which

628
00:21:38,390 --> 00:21:37,440
is something i just looked into a little

629
00:21:40,950 --> 00:21:38,400
bit recently

630
00:21:43,110 --> 00:21:40,960
if if you look into the guidelines the

631
00:21:45,190 --> 00:21:43,120
faa the federal aviation authority has

632
00:21:46,870 --> 00:21:45,200
for reporting ufos

633
00:21:48,470 --> 00:21:46,880
now they just have like a single

634
00:21:49,909 --> 00:21:48,480
paragraph that says

635
00:21:52,630 --> 00:21:49,919
if you think it's a danger call the

636
00:21:53,190 --> 00:21:52,640
local authorities otherwise report it to

637
00:22:00,310 --> 00:21:53,200
a

638
00:22:01,830 --> 00:22:00,320
reporting

639
00:22:03,990 --> 00:22:01,840
council but if you go kind of back in

640
00:22:07,590 --> 00:22:04,000
time on those regulations

641
00:22:10,310 --> 00:22:07,600
uh you get robert bigelow's phone number

642
00:22:13,110 --> 00:22:10,320
the the piccolo aerospace science

643
00:22:14,230 --> 00:22:13,120
research center and if you go back even

644
00:22:17,510 --> 00:22:14,240
further in time

645
00:22:19,430 --> 00:22:17,520
on the faa regulations you get

646
00:22:20,630 --> 00:22:19,440
uh you get the phone number on the

647
00:22:22,950 --> 00:22:20,640
website of nids

648
00:22:25,430 --> 00:22:22,960
the national institute for discovery

649
00:22:27,510 --> 00:22:25,440
science i believe

650
00:22:28,470 --> 00:22:27,520
which is robert bigelow back in back in

651
00:22:31,270 --> 00:22:28,480
the 90s

652
00:22:31,669 --> 00:22:31,280
uh maybe the early 2000s and this was

653
00:22:34,950 --> 00:22:31,679
his

654
00:22:37,029 --> 00:22:34,960
institute for studying the paranormal

655
00:22:39,190 --> 00:22:37,039
and studying ufos and studying things

656
00:22:41,669 --> 00:22:39,200
like cattle mutilations

657
00:22:43,110 --> 00:22:41,679
and if you go to the niz website which

658
00:22:45,270 --> 00:22:43,120
is archived

659
00:22:46,390 --> 00:22:45,280
uh you can see that you know it looks

660
00:22:47,909 --> 00:22:46,400
like a typical

661
00:22:50,310 --> 00:22:47,919
website from the 90s and it's got this

662
00:22:54,310 --> 00:22:50,320
little rotating pyramid on it

663
00:22:54,710 --> 00:22:54,320
and it has a reporting form for ufos and

664
00:22:56,470 --> 00:22:54,720
which

665
00:22:58,230 --> 00:22:56,480
apparently at the time was the official

666
00:23:01,830 --> 00:22:58,240
faa the federal

667
00:23:03,510 --> 00:23:01,840
uh site to report ufos but on that same

668
00:23:05,669 --> 00:23:03,520
form it has two links

669
00:23:07,350 --> 00:23:05,679
one link is for reporting cattle

670
00:23:09,510 --> 00:23:07,360
mutilations

671
00:23:11,110 --> 00:23:09,520
and the other link is for reporting

672
00:23:14,710 --> 00:23:11,120
entities

673
00:23:16,870 --> 00:23:14,720
link and it's this form about

674
00:23:18,230 --> 00:23:16,880
essentially reporting ghosts

675
00:23:19,669 --> 00:23:18,240
and you know things like you did the

676
00:23:20,630 --> 00:23:19,679
temperature change when you saw this

677
00:23:22,470 --> 00:23:20,640
entity and

678
00:23:24,870 --> 00:23:22,480
what was going on in the air and did you

679
00:23:27,750 --> 00:23:24,880
hear any strange noises

680
00:23:28,950 --> 00:23:27,760
so you've got this this federal body the

681
00:23:31,669 --> 00:23:28,960
faa

682
00:23:32,630 --> 00:23:31,679
with this direct link to this kind of

683
00:23:36,230 --> 00:23:32,640
weird

684
00:23:38,950 --> 00:23:36,240
pseudoscience uh there's this ghost

685
00:23:39,830 --> 00:23:38,960
investigation and it's it's it's kind of

686
00:23:42,390 --> 00:23:39,840
bizarre like how

687
00:23:43,269 --> 00:23:42,400
did that actually happen how did the faa

688
00:23:46,230 --> 00:23:43,279
get persuaded

689
00:23:47,669 --> 00:23:46,240
to do this i spoke to one air traffic

690
00:23:48,470 --> 00:23:47,679
controller a few years ago and he told

691
00:23:49,830 --> 00:23:48,480
me

692
00:23:51,990 --> 00:23:49,840
they were actually happy to get this

693
00:23:53,350 --> 00:23:52,000
phone number uh for bigelow because

694
00:23:56,230 --> 00:23:53,360
people used to call them all the time

695
00:23:57,269 --> 00:23:56,240
reporting ufos and they they didn't know

696
00:23:58,630 --> 00:23:57,279
what to do with them you know

697
00:24:00,149 --> 00:23:58,640
they saw some light in the sky but now

698
00:24:00,789 --> 00:24:00,159
they had a phone number to give so they

699
00:24:02,549 --> 00:24:00,799
could just

700
00:24:04,230 --> 00:24:02,559
pass them off but uh you know it isn't

701
00:24:06,950 --> 00:24:04,240
really going anywhere

702
00:24:09,430 --> 00:24:06,960
but yes it's uh it's it's fascinating

703
00:24:12,630 --> 00:24:09,440
that the federal government

704
00:24:14,230 --> 00:24:12,640
has been essentially infiltrated to a

705
00:24:17,190 --> 00:24:14,240
small degree

706
00:24:18,070 --> 00:24:17,200
with these people well it's not just

707
00:24:20,470 --> 00:24:18,080
robert bigelow

708
00:24:22,630 --> 00:24:20,480
who did that of course you know bigelow

709
00:24:24,470 --> 00:24:22,640
is the driving force behind this because

710
00:24:27,669 --> 00:24:24,480
of his

711
00:24:29,510 --> 00:24:27,679
very uh powerful interests not

712
00:24:31,110 --> 00:24:29,520
specifically in space aliens in fact he

713
00:24:33,830 --> 00:24:31,120
recently said he's not interested in

714
00:24:34,630 --> 00:24:33,840
ufos anymore but in this occult world

715
00:24:38,149 --> 00:24:34,640
view

716
00:24:40,470 --> 00:24:38,159
overall and you know that bigelow is

717
00:24:42,870 --> 00:24:40,480
deeply involved with all the people who

718
00:24:45,430 --> 00:24:42,880
are connected to every phase of

719
00:24:45,990 --> 00:24:45,440
the alien ufo world you know when you

720
00:24:49,029 --> 00:24:46,000
look at the

721
00:24:49,990 --> 00:24:49,039
uh 1990s alien abduction conferences and

722
00:24:51,990 --> 00:24:50,000
things you know

723
00:24:54,310 --> 00:24:52,000
the people have pictures there of

724
00:24:57,029 --> 00:24:54,320
themselves with robert bigelow because

725
00:24:57,510 --> 00:24:57,039
he was into the alien abduction stuff

726
00:25:04,710 --> 00:24:57,520
and all

727
00:25:07,190 --> 00:25:04,720
far beyond just the formal infiltration

728
00:25:10,789 --> 00:25:07,200
of government and the perversion of

729
00:25:14,149 --> 00:25:10,799
america's uh ufo investigations

730
00:25:14,549 --> 00:25:14,159
for his occult ends you know what you

731
00:25:18,470 --> 00:25:14,559
see

732
00:25:21,350 --> 00:25:18,480
is that people begin to be drawn into

733
00:25:22,789 --> 00:25:21,360
the world that he and his team have

734
00:25:26,390 --> 00:25:22,799
created

735
00:25:28,149 --> 00:25:26,400
and for example uh as i had said before

736
00:25:29,510 --> 00:25:28,159
hal hodoff was interested in all this

737
00:25:31,750 --> 00:25:29,520
psychic stuff

738
00:25:32,950 --> 00:25:31,760
and it's interesting to see that in the

739
00:25:35,190 --> 00:25:32,960
government documents

740
00:25:36,710 --> 00:25:35,200
you read that when project stargate the

741
00:25:39,830 --> 00:25:36,720
remote viewing psychical

742
00:25:42,230 --> 00:25:39,840
research stuff came to an end and

743
00:25:43,750 --> 00:25:42,240
they're folding it up one of the

744
00:25:45,830 --> 00:25:43,760
documents talks about the people at the

745
00:25:47,510 --> 00:25:45,840
pentagon who read into the program and

746
00:25:47,830 --> 00:25:47,520
who were apparently already familiar

747
00:25:51,990 --> 00:25:47,840
with

748
00:25:55,110 --> 00:25:52,000
mellon

749
00:25:58,870 --> 00:25:55,120
and he was intrigued by

750
00:26:01,909 --> 00:25:58,880
to say the least this stargate research

751
00:26:04,630 --> 00:26:01,919
and according to the uh the documents

752
00:26:05,830 --> 00:26:04,640
he was already deeply familiar with and

753
00:26:08,149 --> 00:26:05,840
well versed in

754
00:26:10,549 --> 00:26:08,159
the program of the psychical research

755
00:26:12,950 --> 00:26:10,559
and all that stuff

756
00:26:14,789 --> 00:26:12,960
and christopher mellon becomes one of

757
00:26:17,750 --> 00:26:14,799
the leading

758
00:26:19,190 --> 00:26:17,760
uh pushers of the current ufo narrative

759
00:26:20,950 --> 00:26:19,200
and i don't think that's entirely a

760
00:26:23,190 --> 00:26:20,960
coincidence because you see that once he

761
00:26:26,149 --> 00:26:23,200
leaves government he goes into lobbying

762
00:26:29,110 --> 00:26:26,159
but he revolves around this ufo world

763
00:26:33,190 --> 00:26:29,120
and around the people who are part of

764
00:26:36,149 --> 00:26:33,200
the bigelow put off psychic stuff

765
00:26:37,190 --> 00:26:36,159
so that when to the stars academy

766
00:26:39,510 --> 00:26:37,200
launches

767
00:26:40,549 --> 00:26:39,520
christopher mellon is drawn into that

768
00:26:42,149 --> 00:26:40,559
and he's there

769
00:26:43,669 --> 00:26:42,159
with people who are part of the bigelow

770
00:26:46,549 --> 00:26:43,679
team people like hal put

771
00:26:48,710 --> 00:26:46,559
off and they're all part of the same

772
00:26:50,549 --> 00:26:48,720
group just under a new name

773
00:26:51,990 --> 00:26:50,559
so you see the same group of people

774
00:26:54,630 --> 00:26:52,000
moving they pick

775
00:26:55,430 --> 00:26:54,640
up and drop numbers occasionally over

776
00:26:57,510 --> 00:26:55,440
time because

777
00:26:58,549 --> 00:26:57,520
after 50 years not everyone's still

778
00:27:00,950 --> 00:26:58,559
around

779
00:27:03,110 --> 00:27:00,960
but the same core group keeps moving

780
00:27:05,190 --> 00:27:03,120
through the 70s the 80s the 90s the

781
00:27:06,710 --> 00:27:05,200
2000s the 2010s

782
00:27:08,630 --> 00:27:06,720
it's the same people with the same

783
00:27:10,870 --> 00:27:08,640
narrative over and over again

784
00:27:12,310 --> 00:27:10,880
and whether the color they put on it is

785
00:27:14,870 --> 00:27:12,320
remote viewing

786
00:27:16,470 --> 00:27:14,880
or ufo investigations or space

787
00:27:19,029 --> 00:27:16,480
poltergeists

788
00:27:20,070 --> 00:27:19,039
the color is just the top level because

789
00:27:22,389 --> 00:27:20,080
inside of that

790
00:27:23,350 --> 00:27:22,399
is always the same idea that what we're

791
00:27:26,389 --> 00:27:23,360
really looking at

792
00:27:27,510 --> 00:27:26,399
isn't space aliens it isn't a specific

793
00:27:29,909 --> 00:27:27,520
phenomenon

794
00:27:32,310 --> 00:27:29,919
but rather it's this sort of nebulous

795
00:27:33,110 --> 00:27:32,320
almost anti-scientific idea that there

796
00:27:36,389 --> 00:27:33,120
is this

797
00:27:38,870 --> 00:27:36,399
spiritual material immaterial

798
00:27:40,230 --> 00:27:38,880
ultra dimensional reality beyond the

799
00:27:42,470 --> 00:27:40,240
physical world it's kind of that

800
00:27:46,549 --> 00:27:42,480
rejection of modernity almost

801
00:27:48,470 --> 00:27:46,559
this rejection of materialism of

802
00:27:50,389 --> 00:27:48,480
what we would consider science that they

803
00:27:51,029 --> 00:27:50,399
would probably say is a false science

804
00:27:53,830 --> 00:27:51,039
because it's

805
00:27:54,789 --> 00:27:53,840
only focused on the material but this

806
00:27:56,789 --> 00:27:54,799
almost gnostic

807
00:27:59,029 --> 00:27:56,799
rejection of reality in favor of some

808
00:28:01,750 --> 00:27:59,039
sort of cosmic truth that lay

809
00:28:02,630 --> 00:28:01,760
beyond the physical world it's

810
00:28:06,070 --> 00:28:02,640
fascinating

811
00:28:07,510 --> 00:28:06,080
uh it and and they describe this

812
00:28:09,350 --> 00:28:07,520
themselves of the light

813
00:28:10,870 --> 00:28:09,360
filet describes it as the invisible

814
00:28:14,230 --> 00:28:10,880
college

815
00:28:15,510 --> 00:28:14,240
uh that that term like dates back quite

816
00:28:18,070 --> 00:28:15,520
a long time i believe

817
00:28:19,510 --> 00:28:18,080
and well it's still in use now yeah it

818
00:28:21,510 --> 00:28:19,520
was a joking term that

819
00:28:22,549 --> 00:28:21,520
valet had used in one of his books to

820
00:28:25,029 --> 00:28:22,559
describe

821
00:28:26,549 --> 00:28:25,039
the uh researchers that were positioned

822
00:28:28,230 --> 00:28:26,559
throughout academia and the government

823
00:28:29,750 --> 00:28:28,240
that he felt were sympathetic to his

824
00:28:31,269 --> 00:28:29,760
cause

825
00:28:33,669 --> 00:28:31,279
most of whom eventually became part of

826
00:28:35,590 --> 00:28:33,679
his orbit you know that jacques valet he

827
00:28:37,110 --> 00:28:35,600
doesn't stand apart from all of this

828
00:28:39,990 --> 00:28:37,120
he's been intimately involved with it

829
00:28:42,630 --> 00:28:40,000
the whole time too uh he was one of the

830
00:28:43,269 --> 00:28:42,640
members of the board of advisers to nids

831
00:28:46,549 --> 00:28:43,279
he

832
00:28:48,870 --> 00:28:46,559
became uh closely connected

833
00:28:50,230 --> 00:28:48,880
to to the stars he wasn't formally part

834
00:28:52,310 --> 00:28:50,240
of it but he worked with them

835
00:28:53,909 --> 00:28:52,320
in testing so-called meta materials

836
00:28:57,269 --> 00:28:53,919
looking for crashed alien

837
00:28:58,230 --> 00:28:57,279
wreckage and even now he just published

838
00:29:00,230 --> 00:28:58,240
a new book

839
00:29:01,590 --> 00:29:00,240
in which he claims to have found

840
00:29:02,870 --> 00:29:01,600
evidence

841
00:29:04,630 --> 00:29:02,880
that the united states government

842
00:29:08,710 --> 00:29:04,640
retrieved a crashed uh

843
00:29:12,070 --> 00:29:08,720
space alien flying saucer in 1945

844
00:29:13,990 --> 00:29:12,080
i believe it was before roswell

845
00:29:16,070 --> 00:29:14,000
and you know that book carries right on

846
00:29:18,230 --> 00:29:16,080
it's a big endorsement from chris mellon

847
00:29:19,909 --> 00:29:18,240
saying that he thought that this was the

848
00:29:21,590 --> 00:29:19,919
most compelling proof yet

849
00:29:23,269 --> 00:29:21,600
that the government is harboring secret

850
00:29:25,350 --> 00:29:23,279
alien technology

851
00:29:26,950 --> 00:29:25,360
says the guy who was most recently

852
00:29:29,190 --> 00:29:26,960
quoted in saying that

853
00:29:30,230 --> 00:29:29,200
you know it's we don't know that it's

854
00:29:31,830 --> 00:29:30,240
aliens

855
00:29:33,350 --> 00:29:31,840
except when you make money off of it

856
00:29:34,870 --> 00:29:33,360
your friends make money off of it and

857
00:29:36,070 --> 00:29:34,880
you put it on the cover of the book

858
00:29:37,750 --> 00:29:36,080
right

859
00:29:39,909 --> 00:29:37,760
so how does this how does a physical

860
00:29:41,269 --> 00:29:39,919
craft fit into valet's worldview if he

861
00:29:42,630 --> 00:29:41,279
thought it was interdimensional

862
00:29:45,510 --> 00:29:42,640
manifestations

863
00:29:46,149 --> 00:29:45,520
uh then now we have a crest a crashed

864
00:29:49,669 --> 00:29:46,159
physical

865
00:29:51,350 --> 00:29:49,679
craft yeah that's

866
00:29:55,350 --> 00:29:51,360
one of those things where there's this

867
00:29:57,269 --> 00:29:55,360
kind of ambiguity um

868
00:29:58,789 --> 00:29:57,279
mostly because a lot of the people who

869
00:30:01,830 --> 00:29:58,799
advocate these things

870
00:30:04,870 --> 00:30:01,840
haven't really thought them through for

871
00:30:07,909 --> 00:30:04,880
rigorous consistency because

872
00:30:09,590 --> 00:30:07,919
when it comes down to ufo speculation

873
00:30:11,909 --> 00:30:09,600
mostly you keep throwing ideas at the

874
00:30:14,070 --> 00:30:11,919
wall until something sticks

875
00:30:15,990 --> 00:30:14,080
they throw out dozens of different ideas

876
00:30:18,070 --> 00:30:16,000
until finally something seems partly

877
00:30:21,190 --> 00:30:18,080
right and then say i told you so

878
00:30:22,310 --> 00:30:21,200
but in valet's case he does believe that

879
00:30:26,310 --> 00:30:22,320
they're both

880
00:30:27,510 --> 00:30:26,320
psychical and somehow material at the

881
00:30:30,389 --> 00:30:27,520
same time

882
00:30:30,870 --> 00:30:30,399
in his book he actually speculates that

883
00:30:34,830 --> 00:30:30,880
these

884
00:30:37,750 --> 00:30:34,840
immaterial ultra dimensional beings are

885
00:30:38,630 --> 00:30:37,760
creating these using their psychic

886
00:30:42,070 --> 00:30:38,640
powers to

887
00:30:44,950 --> 00:30:42,080
create basically flying saucers

888
00:30:46,149 --> 00:30:44,960
that they then purposely drive into our

889
00:30:49,110 --> 00:30:46,159
dimension and crash

890
00:30:50,389 --> 00:30:49,120
into the earth so that we can retrieve

891
00:30:53,269 --> 00:30:50,399
the technology

892
00:30:53,830 --> 00:30:53,279
and benefit from their glorious insights

893
00:30:57,990 --> 00:30:53,840
really

894
00:31:00,149 --> 00:30:58,000
called the best kept secret

895
00:31:01,190 --> 00:31:00,159
and he just published self-published it

896
00:31:05,029 --> 00:31:01,200
uh it was

897
00:31:07,669 --> 00:31:05,039
last month i think and it was uh

898
00:31:08,389 --> 00:31:07,679
it was not good it was not a good book

899
00:31:10,630 --> 00:31:08,399
but

900
00:31:11,830 --> 00:31:10,640
i have not looked at it yet yeah and

901
00:31:13,990 --> 00:31:11,840
like all of the uh

902
00:31:15,029 --> 00:31:14,000
ufo and ancient astronaut theorists he

903
00:31:18,070 --> 00:31:15,039
doesn't actually

904
00:31:19,350 --> 00:31:18,080
say this is what happened he asks

905
00:31:22,310 --> 00:31:19,360
questions

906
00:31:23,350 --> 00:31:22,320
and he says could it be and i think it

907
00:31:26,389 --> 00:31:23,360
might be the case

908
00:31:27,590 --> 00:31:26,399
that so even if he does turn out to be

909
00:31:29,909 --> 00:31:27,600
wrong

910
00:31:32,149 --> 00:31:29,919
he said well i never actually said that

911
00:31:35,509 --> 00:31:32,159
i was only speculating that it might

912
00:31:36,950 --> 00:31:35,519
be until we found something different so

913
00:31:38,870 --> 00:31:36,960
and that's how they get away with a lot

914
00:31:41,430 --> 00:31:38,880
of things you know it's the same in

915
00:31:43,269 --> 00:31:41,440
almost all those pseudo fields where

916
00:31:44,950 --> 00:31:43,279
you're just asking questions like eric

917
00:31:46,950 --> 00:31:44,960
von danigan the famous ancient astronaut

918
00:31:49,190 --> 00:31:46,960
theorists and chariots of the gods

919
00:31:50,789 --> 00:31:49,200
that was his whole line he would get

920
00:31:52,389 --> 00:31:50,799
confronted time and again with well we

921
00:31:54,149 --> 00:31:52,399
did the research and we found this claim

922
00:31:55,830 --> 00:31:54,159
wasn't true we found that no there isn't

923
00:31:57,110 --> 00:31:55,840
a cave of fold with filled with alien

924
00:31:59,669 --> 00:31:57,120
gold in ecuador

925
00:32:01,669 --> 00:31:59,679
and no space aliens didn't really build

926
00:32:03,669 --> 00:32:01,679
the pyramids before noah's flood

927
00:32:05,430 --> 00:32:03,679
and every single time he said well i

928
00:32:08,870 --> 00:32:05,440
didn't actually say that

929
00:32:09,669 --> 00:32:08,880
i'm just asking questions but the thing

930
00:32:12,230 --> 00:32:09,679
is that

931
00:32:13,350 --> 00:32:12,240
readers and viewers they don't hear you

932
00:32:15,350 --> 00:32:13,360
asking a question

933
00:32:16,470 --> 00:32:15,360
they hear you saying this is what i

934
00:32:17,830 --> 00:32:16,480
think

935
00:32:19,590 --> 00:32:17,840
and they don't pay attention to the

936
00:32:22,070 --> 00:32:19,600
niceties of it and

937
00:32:23,350 --> 00:32:22,080
you know their assumption is if you're

938
00:32:25,110 --> 00:32:23,360
asking the question it's because you

939
00:32:26,950 --> 00:32:25,120
think the answer is yes

940
00:32:29,909 --> 00:32:26,960
yes indeed you don't ask questions that

941
00:32:33,110 --> 00:32:29,919
you don't think have positive answers

942
00:32:35,269 --> 00:32:33,120
yeah uh i was listening to a podcast

943
00:32:37,590 --> 00:32:35,279
with uh louie alexander recently and he

944
00:32:39,990 --> 00:32:37,600
was asked about the invisible college

945
00:32:41,110 --> 00:32:40,000
and he also mentioned something called

946
00:32:43,509 --> 00:32:41,120
the aviary

947
00:32:44,870 --> 00:32:43,519
which uh i'd not heard of before uh

948
00:32:46,070 --> 00:32:44,880
which apparently is this secret

949
00:32:48,950 --> 00:32:46,080
organization

950
00:32:49,830 --> 00:32:48,960
where people use bird names as code

951
00:32:51,190 --> 00:32:49,840
names

952
00:32:53,029 --> 00:32:51,200
are you familiar with this like the

953
00:32:55,029 --> 00:32:53,039
college of owls from batman

954
00:32:56,389 --> 00:32:55,039
i i don't i don't know exactly what it

955
00:32:57,909 --> 00:32:56,399
is but i think it's it's kind of like

956
00:33:00,149 --> 00:32:57,919
the invisible college

957
00:33:01,590 --> 00:33:00,159
but it's a way of people to talk about

958
00:33:03,110 --> 00:33:01,600
each other without revealing who they

959
00:33:04,549 --> 00:33:03,120
are talking about

960
00:33:06,389 --> 00:33:04,559
this is something lou alexander talked

961
00:33:10,230 --> 00:33:06,399
about i'm not i'm not making this up

962
00:33:12,070 --> 00:33:10,240
it's some kind of secret

963
00:33:13,669 --> 00:33:12,080
i don't think there's anything from ufo

964
00:33:14,789 --> 00:33:13,679
laura that he hasn't at some point or

965
00:33:17,909 --> 00:33:14,799
another

966
00:33:20,230 --> 00:33:17,919
just asked questions about yeah

967
00:33:21,509 --> 00:33:20,240
he recently uh he was recently talking

968
00:33:23,190 --> 00:33:21,519
about

969
00:33:25,990 --> 00:33:23,200
how he thinks that there's going to be

970
00:33:28,630 --> 00:33:26,000
this grand rebirth of civilization when

971
00:33:30,630 --> 00:33:28,640
disclosure shows us that the aliens are

972
00:33:32,630 --> 00:33:30,640
changing our ideas of philosophy and

973
00:33:36,070 --> 00:33:32,640
religion and what have you

974
00:33:38,070 --> 00:33:36,080
and he in another recent interview he

975
00:33:40,149 --> 00:33:38,080
more or less conceded that he thinks

976
00:33:41,269 --> 00:33:40,159
that all of this is down to ultra

977
00:33:42,710 --> 00:33:41,279
terrestrials

978
00:33:44,789 --> 00:33:42,720
you know the interdimensional space

979
00:33:47,110 --> 00:33:44,799
spooks and

980
00:33:48,950 --> 00:33:47,120
you know at some point you have to

981
00:33:51,029 --> 00:33:48,960
realize that while he

982
00:33:52,870 --> 00:33:51,039
banks a lot on his credibility as a

983
00:33:54,230 --> 00:33:52,880
former pentagon official

984
00:33:56,149 --> 00:33:54,240
a lot of the words that come out of his

985
00:33:57,750 --> 00:33:56,159
mouth aren't his words

986
00:33:59,669 --> 00:33:57,760
they're jacques vale's words they're

987
00:34:04,149 --> 00:33:59,679
hell put offs words

988
00:34:07,029 --> 00:34:04,159
their ideas from 1970s and 1980s

989
00:34:08,069 --> 00:34:07,039
uh ancient astronaut books and ufo books

990
00:34:10,470 --> 00:34:08,079
and even

991
00:34:11,589 --> 00:34:10,480
by his own admission from 1970s science

992
00:34:15,270 --> 00:34:11,599
fiction he uh

993
00:34:19,349 --> 00:34:15,280
cited a sci-fi story from 1973 or

994
00:34:19,990 --> 00:34:19,359
whatever it was as one of the frameworks

995
00:34:22,869 --> 00:34:20,000
through which he

996
00:34:25,190 --> 00:34:22,879
tries to understand ufos this idea that

997
00:34:26,389 --> 00:34:25,200
there's a hidden civilization underneath

998
00:34:29,430 --> 00:34:26,399
the ocean

999
00:34:32,550 --> 00:34:29,440
and they're sending ufos to the surfaces

1000
00:34:36,069 --> 00:34:32,560
uh probes from this uh sort of

1001
00:34:41,109 --> 00:34:36,079
invisible hidden secret world like

1002
00:34:42,790 --> 00:34:41,119
okay um got some evidence for that

1003
00:34:44,629 --> 00:34:42,800
well you you talk about this the way you

1004
00:34:47,669 --> 00:34:44,639
describe it the influence that

1005
00:34:47,990 --> 00:34:47,679
uh that valet and put off uh and others

1006
00:34:50,069 --> 00:34:48,000
have

1007
00:34:51,030 --> 00:34:50,079
throughout the years it almost it almost

1008
00:34:54,069 --> 00:34:51,040
seems like a

1009
00:34:55,669 --> 00:34:54,079
like a very small cult with a kind of

1010
00:34:58,870 --> 00:34:55,679
limited number of people in

1011
00:35:00,829 --> 00:34:58,880
in positions of of of influence

1012
00:35:01,990 --> 00:35:00,839
who throughout the years of being kind

1013
00:35:04,390 --> 00:35:02,000
of

1014
00:35:06,790 --> 00:35:04,400
trying to to get this narrative across

1015
00:35:09,510 --> 00:35:06,800
and they've been recruiting people

1016
00:35:10,310 --> 00:35:09,520
throughout the years like elizondo i

1017
00:35:13,510 --> 00:35:10,320
don't know if

1018
00:35:15,349 --> 00:35:13,520
would he have been a ufo believer before

1019
00:35:16,710 --> 00:35:15,359
he got involved in this a-tip program do

1020
00:35:18,630 --> 00:35:16,720
you think perhaps he just simply

1021
00:35:21,589 --> 00:35:18,640
according to him he was not

1022
00:35:24,470 --> 00:35:21,599
no so he became convinced uh kind of

1023
00:35:27,670 --> 00:35:24,480
like the the mind virus of uh

1024
00:35:29,510 --> 00:35:27,680
yeah basically and and put off uh

1025
00:35:31,430 --> 00:35:29,520
i mean i don't wanna sound yeah i don't

1026
00:35:32,950 --> 00:35:31,440
want to sound conspiratorial here

1027
00:35:33,990 --> 00:35:32,960
because it's not like there was a vast

1028
00:35:36,390 --> 00:35:34,000
conspiracy

1029
00:35:38,069 --> 00:35:36,400
of pod people who are kind of sucking

1030
00:35:40,790 --> 00:35:38,079
brains dry

1031
00:35:41,510 --> 00:35:40,800
but there is is a network of influence

1032
00:35:43,430 --> 00:35:41,520
right you know

1033
00:35:45,109 --> 00:35:43,440
there are people who are interested in

1034
00:35:46,470 --> 00:35:45,119
ufos as a topic

1035
00:35:48,150 --> 00:35:46,480
you know i can't say that i've never

1036
00:35:50,470 --> 00:35:48,160
been interested in ufos i wouldn't be

1037
00:35:54,390 --> 00:35:50,480
here if i hadn't been at some point

1038
00:35:56,710 --> 00:35:54,400
but uh what happens is

1039
00:35:58,230 --> 00:35:56,720
people get interested in topics and then

1040
00:36:01,589 --> 00:35:58,240
they become radicalized by

1041
00:36:04,870 --> 00:36:01,599
exposure to a particular set of ideas

1042
00:36:05,910 --> 00:36:04,880
that they feel is uh powerful and

1043
00:36:07,829 --> 00:36:05,920
prestigious

1044
00:36:10,870 --> 00:36:07,839
and within the ufo field for better or

1045
00:36:13,670 --> 00:36:10,880
for worse jacques ballet's ideas

1046
00:36:15,270 --> 00:36:13,680
are prestigious a long long time ago

1047
00:36:18,310 --> 00:36:15,280
before i really knew anything about

1048
00:36:19,829 --> 00:36:18,320
shock ballet i had uh read

1049
00:36:22,150 --> 00:36:19,839
one of his books it was called wonders

1050
00:36:26,310 --> 00:36:22,160
in the sky and in it

1051
00:36:29,589 --> 00:36:26,320
he went through a thousand years of

1052
00:36:31,510 --> 00:36:29,599
ufo sightings and took all these ancient

1053
00:36:32,870 --> 00:36:31,520
and medieval texts and analyzed them and

1054
00:36:33,910 --> 00:36:32,880
presented them and said this is the

1055
00:36:37,750 --> 00:36:33,920
evidence for

1056
00:36:40,550 --> 00:36:37,760
ufos over over time and

1057
00:36:41,910 --> 00:36:40,560
i thought wow this is crap and that's

1058
00:36:44,470 --> 00:36:41,920
because

1059
00:36:46,230 --> 00:36:44,480
as somebody who is interested in ancient

1060
00:36:47,910 --> 00:36:46,240
and medieval literature i've read a lot

1061
00:36:49,990 --> 00:36:47,920
of the source texts

1062
00:36:51,829 --> 00:36:50,000
and being able to read the original

1063
00:36:53,270 --> 00:36:51,839
languages i had read through a lot of

1064
00:36:55,190 --> 00:36:53,280
that material and

1065
00:36:57,190 --> 00:36:55,200
recognize that you know these things

1066
00:36:59,190 --> 00:36:57,200
aren't translated right

1067
00:37:01,030 --> 00:36:59,200
this doesn't say what you think it says

1068
00:37:03,270 --> 00:37:01,040
and in some cases like

1069
00:37:04,710 --> 00:37:03,280
the author literally says at the end but

1070
00:37:06,630 --> 00:37:04,720
it was all a dream or

1071
00:37:07,990 --> 00:37:06,640
this never happened you're leaving this

1072
00:37:09,750 --> 00:37:08,000
part out

1073
00:37:11,270 --> 00:37:09,760
so i had started writing about that on

1074
00:37:14,069 --> 00:37:11,280
my blog

1075
00:37:16,069 --> 00:37:14,079
and uh talked about all of the the

1076
00:37:17,349 --> 00:37:16,079
mistakes that i found in his book

1077
00:37:20,230 --> 00:37:17,359
and one of the things that i kept

1078
00:37:22,230 --> 00:37:20,240
getting was emails from

1079
00:37:24,069 --> 00:37:22,240
very angry very outraged people who are

1080
00:37:26,470 --> 00:37:24,079
saying you know jacques vale is the most

1081
00:37:28,390 --> 00:37:26,480
respected ufologist in the world and

1082
00:37:29,589 --> 00:37:28,400
you can't criticize him he's one of the

1083
00:37:32,710 --> 00:37:29,599
greats and so on

1084
00:37:34,550 --> 00:37:32,720
i'm like it's wrong i'm not gonna tell

1085
00:37:37,030 --> 00:37:34,560
you it's right just because he's

1086
00:37:39,349 --> 00:37:37,040
an old man who's uh inspiration for

1087
00:37:42,150 --> 00:37:39,359
close encounters of the third kind

1088
00:37:42,870 --> 00:37:42,160
it's just wrong yeah and when i went

1089
00:37:45,589 --> 00:37:42,880
back and looked

1090
00:37:46,310 --> 00:37:45,599
those errors aren't just in that one

1091
00:37:48,390 --> 00:37:46,320
book

1092
00:37:49,750 --> 00:37:48,400
he was repeating them for half of a

1093
00:37:51,829 --> 00:37:49,760
century

1094
00:37:53,829 --> 00:37:51,839
the same errors over and over and over

1095
00:37:56,150 --> 00:37:53,839
and because of his reputation

1096
00:37:58,310 --> 00:37:56,160
he's a frenchman and a philosopher and

1097
00:38:01,589 --> 00:37:58,320
he was a great thinker on ufos

1098
00:38:03,589 --> 00:38:01,599
no one ever checked like 50 years all

1099
00:38:05,430 --> 00:38:03,599
the way from passport to begonia on

1100
00:38:07,349 --> 00:38:05,440
no one ever thought maybe we should look

1101
00:38:09,190 --> 00:38:07,359
this up in the actual book he's quoting

1102
00:38:13,109 --> 00:38:09,200
and see does it say what he says it says

1103
00:38:15,270 --> 00:38:13,119
oh it doesn't it's that kind of

1104
00:38:17,349 --> 00:38:15,280
deference to authority yeah that kind of

1105
00:38:18,310 --> 00:38:17,359
permeates this ufo culture where people

1106
00:38:20,630 --> 00:38:18,320
are saying well

1107
00:38:21,510 --> 00:38:20,640
the authority figure says so and

1108
00:38:23,990 --> 00:38:21,520
therefore

1109
00:38:26,710 --> 00:38:24,000
it must be right and it builds this sort

1110
00:38:30,310 --> 00:38:26,720
of self-referential mental world

1111
00:38:31,270 --> 00:38:30,320
where people are in this philosophical

1112
00:38:32,710 --> 00:38:31,280
system

1113
00:38:34,550 --> 00:38:32,720
where they believe things because other

1114
00:38:35,829 --> 00:38:34,560
people believe them and the other people

1115
00:38:38,310 --> 00:38:35,839
believe them because

1116
00:38:39,270 --> 00:38:38,320
people said that believed in them years

1117
00:38:41,510 --> 00:38:39,280
before

1118
00:38:42,710 --> 00:38:41,520
and all of that sort of becomes

1119
00:38:44,390 --> 00:38:42,720
reinforcing

1120
00:38:45,670 --> 00:38:44,400
and it goes around in a circle over and

1121
00:38:45,990 --> 00:38:45,680
over and that's why you get the same

1122
00:38:47,589 --> 00:38:46,000
people

1123
00:38:49,670 --> 00:38:47,599
cycling through and you get the same

1124
00:38:52,069 --> 00:38:49,680
ideas cycling through

1125
00:38:52,790 --> 00:38:52,079
the same three ideas that started in

1126
00:38:54,950 --> 00:38:52,800
when kenneth

1127
00:38:55,990 --> 00:38:54,960
arnold saw his first flying saucers in

1128
00:38:59,109 --> 00:38:56,000
1947

1129
00:39:00,710 --> 00:38:59,119
are still there today three days after

1130
00:39:01,589 --> 00:39:00,720
kenneth arnold saw the flying saucers

1131
00:39:03,990 --> 00:39:01,599
there were already

1132
00:39:04,870 --> 00:39:04,000
uh three major hypotheses for what ufos

1133
00:39:10,390 --> 00:39:04,880
were

1134
00:39:12,950 --> 00:39:10,400
soviet technology

1135
00:39:14,390 --> 00:39:12,960
that they were spacecraft from another

1136
00:39:17,589 --> 00:39:14,400
world or

1137
00:39:19,750 --> 00:39:17,599
that they were supernatural entities um

1138
00:39:21,750 --> 00:39:19,760
basically demons and that they were

1139
00:39:23,910 --> 00:39:21,760
heralding the end times

1140
00:39:26,550 --> 00:39:23,920
and those are still the same three

1141
00:39:29,030 --> 00:39:26,560
hypotheses that we're working with today

1142
00:39:30,310 --> 00:39:29,040
and that's ridiculous it's been nearly

1143
00:39:31,589 --> 00:39:30,320
75 years

1144
00:39:33,270 --> 00:39:31,599
and we're still dealing with the same

1145
00:39:33,589 --> 00:39:33,280
three things that people speculated

1146
00:39:35,910 --> 00:39:33,599
about

1147
00:39:37,349 --> 00:39:35,920
randomly three days after the ufo's

1148
00:39:39,589 --> 00:39:37,359
first seen

1149
00:39:41,430 --> 00:39:39,599
and we're still getting it um having an

1150
00:39:43,030 --> 00:39:41,440
effect on on the government essentially

1151
00:39:45,109 --> 00:39:43,040
the federal government is doing things

1152
00:39:45,670 --> 00:39:45,119
based on on these people and this these

1153
00:39:47,589 --> 00:39:45,680
these

1154
00:39:49,270 --> 00:39:47,599
recycled ideas and the influence they've

1155
00:39:51,750 --> 00:39:49,280
had from other people

1156
00:39:52,870 --> 00:39:51,760
um the thing about that though is that

1157
00:39:56,310 --> 00:39:52,880
the federal government

1158
00:39:58,069 --> 00:39:56,320
gets into this not because they see it a

1159
00:39:59,030 --> 00:39:58,079
national security crisis but right at

1160
00:40:00,950 --> 00:39:59,040
the beginning

1161
00:40:02,950 --> 00:40:00,960
it's because of popular and public

1162
00:40:04,069 --> 00:40:02,960
interest and that filters into the

1163
00:40:06,230 --> 00:40:04,079
government

1164
00:40:08,470 --> 00:40:06,240
and starts to create this snowball

1165
00:40:10,069 --> 00:40:08,480
effect where they begin investigating

1166
00:40:11,750 --> 00:40:10,079
because the public is interested

1167
00:40:13,109 --> 00:40:11,760
and especially because the media are

1168
00:40:14,870 --> 00:40:13,119
interested

1169
00:40:16,309 --> 00:40:14,880
and that in turn generates more media

1170
00:40:17,430 --> 00:40:16,319
coverage which generates more

1171
00:40:19,349 --> 00:40:17,440
investigation

1172
00:40:21,349 --> 00:40:19,359
and what happens is that people within

1173
00:40:23,589 --> 00:40:21,359
the pentagon especially

1174
00:40:25,829 --> 00:40:23,599
all the way back to the late 1940s

1175
00:40:27,190 --> 00:40:25,839
there's this small group in pentagon

1176
00:40:29,270 --> 00:40:27,200
who think oh yeah well this could be

1177
00:40:30,349 --> 00:40:29,280
actually the aliens and that group

1178
00:40:32,390 --> 00:40:30,359
becomes

1179
00:40:33,510 --> 00:40:32,400
self-perpetuating and self-reinforcing

1180
00:40:35,270 --> 00:40:33,520
no matter how hard

1181
00:40:36,790 --> 00:40:35,280
pentagon leadership tries to stamp it

1182
00:40:39,190 --> 00:40:36,800
out and they did

1183
00:40:39,990 --> 00:40:39,200
for decades trying to stamp it out

1184
00:40:42,470 --> 00:40:40,000
because

1185
00:40:44,309 --> 00:40:42,480
um they recognized that these people

1186
00:40:45,910 --> 00:40:44,319
were acting more or less irrational even

1187
00:40:47,510 --> 00:40:45,920
believing this

1188
00:40:50,150 --> 00:40:47,520
when you go back to the early reports in

1189
00:40:53,670 --> 00:40:50,160
the 1940s you find that

1190
00:40:56,309 --> 00:40:53,680
in 1947 the fbi investigated

1191
00:40:56,710 --> 00:40:56,319
and more or less determined that they

1192
00:40:58,790 --> 00:40:56,720
thought

1193
00:41:00,630 --> 00:40:58,800
the whole idea that flying saucers were

1194
00:41:02,470 --> 00:41:00,640
alien spacecraft

1195
00:41:05,030 --> 00:41:02,480
they believed it almost certainly came

1196
00:41:07,910 --> 00:41:05,040
from the work of ray palmer

1197
00:41:09,990 --> 00:41:07,920
who was a science fiction editor for one

1198
00:41:12,230 --> 00:41:10,000
of the pulp science fiction magazines

1199
00:41:13,109 --> 00:41:12,240
who had begun promoting besides this

1200
00:41:15,910 --> 00:41:13,119
idea that

1201
00:41:17,270 --> 00:41:15,920
flying saucers were space alien craft at

1202
00:41:18,230 --> 00:41:17,280
a time when most people didn't think

1203
00:41:20,710 --> 00:41:18,240
that they were

1204
00:41:21,510 --> 00:41:20,720
and they thought they concluded in one

1205
00:41:23,910 --> 00:41:21,520
of their reports

1206
00:41:25,270 --> 00:41:23,920
that it was more or less ray palmer's

1207
00:41:27,670 --> 00:41:25,280
advocacy that

1208
00:41:29,190 --> 00:41:27,680
created the media frenzy these were

1209
00:41:31,589 --> 00:41:29,200
space alien craft which in turn

1210
00:41:34,309 --> 00:41:31,599
influenced the public to believe it

1211
00:41:35,750 --> 00:41:34,319
but within a couple of years you find

1212
00:41:37,430 --> 00:41:35,760
people in the pentagon who are arguing

1213
00:41:39,109 --> 00:41:37,440
that they must be space alien craft now

1214
00:41:40,870 --> 00:41:39,119
why did they do that

1215
00:41:42,950 --> 00:41:40,880
it wasn't because they had evidence that

1216
00:41:45,670 --> 00:41:42,960
these things came from another world

1217
00:41:46,710 --> 00:41:45,680
when you read the reports what you find

1218
00:41:48,710 --> 00:41:46,720
is that the people who

1219
00:41:50,790 --> 00:41:48,720
advocated for space healing craft

1220
00:41:52,150 --> 00:41:50,800
eliminated every other possibility that

1221
00:41:55,589 --> 00:41:52,160
in space aliens

1222
00:41:57,829 --> 00:41:55,599
because they didn't believe that pilots

1223
00:42:00,390 --> 00:41:57,839
were capable of being wrong

1224
00:42:02,230 --> 00:42:00,400
that was because at the time now you

1225
00:42:02,870 --> 00:42:02,240
have to remember this is the late 1940s

1226
00:42:05,030 --> 00:42:02,880
when

1227
00:42:06,550 --> 00:42:05,040
all pilots were men and everyone was

1228
00:42:08,630 --> 00:42:06,560
incredibly sexist

1229
00:42:10,390 --> 00:42:08,640
but they believed that if you saw ufos

1230
00:42:12,550 --> 00:42:10,400
were being hysterical

1231
00:42:13,589 --> 00:42:12,560
pilots couldn't be hysterical because

1232
00:42:15,990 --> 00:42:13,599
they were

1233
00:42:17,510 --> 00:42:16,000
super masculine he men and couldn't have

1234
00:42:19,829 --> 00:42:17,520
a woman's disease

1235
00:42:21,510 --> 00:42:19,839
and be effeminate and thinking and

1236
00:42:23,910 --> 00:42:21,520
seeing things in the sky

1237
00:42:25,430 --> 00:42:23,920
so if the pilots couldn't be wrong

1238
00:42:26,950 --> 00:42:25,440
because that would compromise national

1239
00:42:28,470 --> 00:42:26,960
security because it would mean that our

1240
00:42:31,589 --> 00:42:28,480
soldiers our sailors our

1241
00:42:32,150 --> 00:42:31,599
airmen weren't masculine he men but were

1242
00:42:34,309 --> 00:42:32,160
in fact

1243
00:42:35,670 --> 00:42:34,319
capable of being hysterical and

1244
00:42:38,470 --> 00:42:35,680
irrational

1245
00:42:39,990 --> 00:42:38,480
if they couldn't be wrong then flying

1246
00:42:42,150 --> 00:42:40,000
saucers had to be from another world

1247
00:42:44,550 --> 00:42:42,160
because they couldn't be anything else

1248
00:42:47,430 --> 00:42:44,560
yeah and it is that i that yeah it's

1249
00:42:49,829 --> 00:42:47,440
that idea that we have to trust pilots

1250
00:42:51,510 --> 00:42:49,839
to draw conclusions about what they see

1251
00:42:54,630 --> 00:42:51,520
because for them to be wrong

1252
00:42:56,630 --> 00:42:54,640
is to question the army the navy the air

1253
00:42:57,750 --> 00:42:56,640
force america's entire national security

1254
00:43:00,150 --> 00:42:57,760
infrastructure

1255
00:43:00,950 --> 00:43:00,160
that yields this kind of snowball effect

1256
00:43:04,470 --> 00:43:00,960
of this

1257
00:43:06,950 --> 00:43:04,480
uh snowballing effect the mythology of

1258
00:43:08,950 --> 00:43:06,960
flying saucers as alien spacecraft and

1259
00:43:11,829 --> 00:43:08,960
that's still what we see today

1260
00:43:12,230 --> 00:43:11,839
not necessarily the masculinity hysteria

1261
00:43:14,470 --> 00:43:12,240
thing

1262
00:43:16,390 --> 00:43:14,480
but still that idea that if you question

1263
00:43:17,910 --> 00:43:16,400
pilots conclusions about what they see

1264
00:43:19,990 --> 00:43:17,920
not necessarily what they saw

1265
00:43:21,349 --> 00:43:20,000
people see what they see but how they

1266
00:43:23,349 --> 00:43:21,359
interpret what they see

1267
00:43:25,030 --> 00:43:23,359
you're somehow questioning national

1268
00:43:28,230 --> 00:43:25,040
security you're questioning

1269
00:43:29,190 --> 00:43:28,240
authority and that's an impossibility if

1270
00:43:31,349 --> 00:43:29,200
you want to maintain

1271
00:43:32,710 --> 00:43:31,359
your good patriotic standing yeah it's

1272
00:43:34,309 --> 00:43:32,720
very true it's uh

1273
00:43:35,829 --> 00:43:34,319
something i hear all the time is that

1274
00:43:38,550 --> 00:43:35,839
you know how can you not believe

1275
00:43:40,150 --> 00:43:38,560
that this pilot has said this thing and

1276
00:43:41,270 --> 00:43:40,160
also that people say that if this is

1277
00:43:43,430 --> 00:43:41,280
true then we have this

1278
00:43:44,710 --> 00:43:43,440
this terrible problem that uh you know

1279
00:43:46,309 --> 00:43:44,720
we've got this issue where

1280
00:43:47,910 --> 00:43:46,319
pilots are seeing things they see it as

1281
00:43:50,550 --> 00:43:47,920
some kind of disaster

1282
00:43:52,150 --> 00:43:50,560
uh for for a national security that a

1283
00:43:53,430 --> 00:43:52,160
pilot can't identify something when

1284
00:43:55,270 --> 00:43:53,440
really it's a fairly

1285
00:43:56,950 --> 00:43:55,280
straightforward and mundane thing that

1286
00:43:58,470 --> 00:43:56,960
pilots are sometimes not going to be

1287
00:43:59,510 --> 00:43:58,480
able to identify things or they will

1288
00:44:02,470 --> 00:43:59,520
sometimes

1289
00:44:03,349 --> 00:44:02,480
misidentify things but i want to move on

1290
00:44:05,030 --> 00:44:03,359
worth considering

1291
00:44:06,790 --> 00:44:05,040
oh no i was just going to say real quick

1292
00:44:08,309 --> 00:44:06,800
it's something worth considering

1293
00:44:10,390 --> 00:44:08,319
um i don't know if you've ever read a

1294
00:44:12,230 --> 00:44:10,400
book called the mind in the cave by

1295
00:44:15,349 --> 00:44:12,240
david lewis williams

1296
00:44:18,790 --> 00:44:15,359
it's a book about uh paleolithic culture

1297
00:44:20,069 --> 00:44:18,800
but it goes into this idea that the mind

1298
00:44:21,349 --> 00:44:20,079
has within it

1299
00:44:23,109 --> 00:44:21,359
i don't want to call them archetypes

1300
00:44:24,069 --> 00:44:23,119
because carl young kind of drove that

1301
00:44:27,109 --> 00:44:24,079
into the occult

1302
00:44:27,990 --> 00:44:27,119
ground but these uh sort of generic

1303
00:44:31,030 --> 00:44:28,000
forms

1304
00:44:34,710 --> 00:44:31,040
right things like circles and squiggles

1305
00:44:36,710 --> 00:44:34,720
spirals and what have you and that

1306
00:44:38,710 --> 00:44:36,720
these things can be auto-generated

1307
00:44:42,230 --> 00:44:38,720
within the mind

1308
00:44:44,790 --> 00:44:42,240
um in response to ambiguous stimuli

1309
00:44:45,990 --> 00:44:44,800
so what happens is any human mind

1310
00:44:48,790 --> 00:44:46,000
anywhere in the world

1311
00:44:50,470 --> 00:44:48,800
will automatically generate or react to

1312
00:44:53,430 --> 00:44:50,480
these shapes

1313
00:44:55,990 --> 00:44:53,440
but how we interpret those shapes is

1314
00:44:59,349 --> 00:44:56,000
determined by a cultural script

1315
00:45:02,630 --> 00:44:59,359
so for example uh if we see

1316
00:45:04,150 --> 00:45:02,640
a lightning bolt shape we'll interpret

1317
00:45:05,750 --> 00:45:04,160
that as a light level

1318
00:45:07,430 --> 00:45:05,760
but another culture might see that as a

1319
00:45:10,870 --> 00:45:07,440
snake in the sky

1320
00:45:12,470 --> 00:45:10,880
similarly uh what we find throughout

1321
00:45:15,750 --> 00:45:12,480
time is that people see circles

1322
00:45:17,670 --> 00:45:15,760
um in the sky obviously common shape but

1323
00:45:19,910 --> 00:45:17,680
it's something that lewis williams talks

1324
00:45:21,670 --> 00:45:19,920
about um as one of the

1325
00:45:23,109 --> 00:45:21,680
core archetypical shapes that are

1326
00:45:25,510 --> 00:45:23,119
generated um

1327
00:45:27,109 --> 00:45:25,520
in altered states of consciousness um

1328
00:45:29,030 --> 00:45:27,119
and situations where there's a lot of

1329
00:45:30,390 --> 00:45:29,040
stress or anxiety and what have you

1330
00:45:32,470 --> 00:45:30,400
that it can be self-generated from

1331
00:45:34,069 --> 00:45:32,480
within the mind but

1332
00:45:36,390 --> 00:45:34,079
what you see when you see that circle

1333
00:45:39,270 --> 00:45:36,400
whether you see a chariot

1334
00:45:40,069 --> 00:45:39,280
pulled by the horses of the sun whether

1335
00:45:43,270 --> 00:45:40,079
you see

1336
00:45:43,910 --> 00:45:43,280
an alien spacecraft with windows or what

1337
00:45:46,550 --> 00:45:43,920
have you

1338
00:45:48,150 --> 00:45:46,560
is determined by the cultural script and

1339
00:45:48,710 --> 00:45:48,160
one of the things that we find in our

1340
00:45:50,710 --> 00:45:48,720
culture

1341
00:45:52,069 --> 00:45:50,720
is that because ray palmer had created

1342
00:45:54,870 --> 00:45:52,079
this mythology

1343
00:45:55,750 --> 00:45:54,880
that things seen in the sky were alien

1344
00:45:57,349 --> 00:45:55,760
spacecraft

1345
00:45:59,349 --> 00:45:57,359
which he was doing to sell magazines

1346
00:46:02,390 --> 00:45:59,359
because he was selling magazines

1347
00:46:03,910 --> 00:46:02,400
about stories of alien invasion because

1348
00:46:05,270 --> 00:46:03,920
we have that cultural script that's been

1349
00:46:08,390 --> 00:46:05,280
reinforced

1350
00:46:11,190 --> 00:46:08,400
for 70 some odd years now

1351
00:46:11,829 --> 00:46:11,200
the cultural script that we interpret

1352
00:46:15,910 --> 00:46:11,839
using

1353
00:46:18,550 --> 00:46:15,920
to interpret ambiguous stimuli ends up

1354
00:46:19,430 --> 00:46:18,560
shaping what we see into these cultural

1355
00:46:22,710 --> 00:46:19,440
messages

1356
00:46:23,349 --> 00:46:22,720
even if they're not you know actually

1357
00:46:26,069 --> 00:46:23,359
there

1358
00:46:27,990 --> 00:46:26,079
it's not that anything is going wrong in

1359
00:46:30,390 --> 00:46:28,000
your mind it's not that you're

1360
00:46:32,230 --> 00:46:30,400
hallucinating or seeing things but when

1361
00:46:35,349 --> 00:46:32,240
you get an ambiguous stimuli

1362
00:46:37,750 --> 00:46:35,359
a stimulus of any kind a light

1363
00:46:39,589 --> 00:46:37,760
a shape what have you it runs through

1364
00:46:41,670 --> 00:46:39,599
these archetypical forms and is

1365
00:46:43,670 --> 00:46:41,680
processed through a cultural script

1366
00:46:44,790 --> 00:46:43,680
so that you interpret it according to

1367
00:46:46,069 --> 00:46:44,800
what you believe you're going to

1368
00:46:47,829 --> 00:46:46,079
interpret

1369
00:46:49,589 --> 00:46:47,839
no i'm not saying that's the explanation

1370
00:46:51,670 --> 00:46:49,599
for every ufo obviously

1371
00:46:53,670 --> 00:46:51,680
but it does explain how there can

1372
00:46:54,950 --> 00:46:53,680
actually be something you're seeing

1373
00:46:56,950 --> 00:46:54,960
but what you're interpreting and

1374
00:46:58,550 --> 00:46:56,960
experiencing isn't necessarily what's

1375
00:47:00,710 --> 00:46:58,560
directly in front of you

1376
00:47:03,349 --> 00:47:00,720
yeah i think you do see that in in many

1377
00:47:05,670 --> 00:47:03,359
ufo cases as well that were solved

1378
00:47:06,390 --> 00:47:05,680
uh and especially with pilots because

1379
00:47:08,950 --> 00:47:06,400
pilots

1380
00:47:10,069 --> 00:47:08,960
often get ambiguous stimuli because the

1381
00:47:12,390 --> 00:47:10,079
things they see

1382
00:47:14,230 --> 00:47:12,400
in the air are often small or far away

1383
00:47:15,670 --> 00:47:14,240
or just simply lights and one of the

1384
00:47:17,510 --> 00:47:15,680
common ones that

1385
00:47:20,150 --> 00:47:17,520
has happened a few times in the past is

1386
00:47:22,790 --> 00:47:20,160
that pilots will mistake venus

1387
00:47:25,109 --> 00:47:22,800
for an oncoming plane and that's not so

1388
00:47:27,510 --> 00:47:25,119
much uh you know a cultural archetype

1389
00:47:28,390 --> 00:47:27,520
it's um what pilots are used to seeing

1390
00:47:30,710 --> 00:47:28,400
in the sky

1391
00:47:31,910 --> 00:47:30,720
their brains have been hard hardwired

1392
00:47:33,670 --> 00:47:31,920
but like

1393
00:47:36,870 --> 00:47:33,680
uh programmed over time by lots of

1394
00:47:39,430 --> 00:47:36,880
experience into interpreting

1395
00:47:41,349 --> 00:47:39,440
things around them as flying craft

1396
00:47:43,670 --> 00:47:41,359
because a large part of being a pilot is

1397
00:47:44,790 --> 00:47:43,680
avoiding other planes

1398
00:47:46,230 --> 00:47:44,800
not that you're bumping into them all

1399
00:47:47,589 --> 00:47:46,240
the time but you have to be aware of

1400
00:47:48,309 --> 00:47:47,599
where other planes are and you have to

1401
00:47:50,549 --> 00:47:48,319
identify

1402
00:47:51,990 --> 00:47:50,559
traffic in various locations so your

1403
00:47:53,829 --> 00:47:52,000
brain is constantly

1404
00:47:55,670 --> 00:47:53,839
seeking out of the plane so when you see

1405
00:47:59,510 --> 00:47:55,680
something that's a bit ambiguous

1406
00:48:01,670 --> 00:47:59,520
like a a venus devoid of any any context

1407
00:48:03,190 --> 00:48:01,680
that little light in the sky you tend to

1408
00:48:04,390 --> 00:48:03,200
interpret it as

1409
00:48:07,109 --> 00:48:04,400
the type of thing that you are looking

1410
00:48:09,910 --> 00:48:07,119
for a flying craft

1411
00:48:11,990 --> 00:48:09,920
and then when it doesn't move exactly as

1412
00:48:14,790 --> 00:48:12,000
you expect because it is in fact a

1413
00:48:15,750 --> 00:48:14,800
distant far away object you interpret

1414
00:48:19,349 --> 00:48:15,760
that

1415
00:48:21,430 --> 00:48:19,359
its relative motion

1416
00:48:22,710 --> 00:48:21,440
as being some kind of amazing

1417
00:48:25,670 --> 00:48:22,720
acceleration

1418
00:48:26,390 --> 00:48:25,680
or something like that it's uh it's you

1419
00:48:29,750 --> 00:48:26,400
kind of

1420
00:48:33,190 --> 00:48:29,760
your mental framework imposes

1421
00:48:34,710 --> 00:48:33,200
order on ambiguous stimuli and makes it

1422
00:48:36,390 --> 00:48:34,720
not ambiguous

1423
00:48:40,069 --> 00:48:36,400
but not necessarily the correct

1424
00:48:45,190 --> 00:48:43,190
uh so here we are

1425
00:48:47,109 --> 00:48:45,200
with the uap report about to drop in a

1426
00:48:50,630 --> 00:48:47,119
few days

1427
00:48:54,069 --> 00:48:50,640
the pentagon has had these programs of

1428
00:48:57,109 --> 00:48:54,079
of alien well ufo investigations and

1429
00:48:59,910 --> 00:48:57,119
historically paranormal investigations

1430
00:49:01,510 --> 00:48:59,920
do you think things are going to change

1431
00:49:03,589 --> 00:49:01,520
in the future do you think the pentagon

1432
00:49:07,270 --> 00:49:03,599
is going to want to extricate itself

1433
00:49:11,670 --> 00:49:09,910
i wish i had a good answer for that i'd

1434
00:49:15,030 --> 00:49:11,680
like to think that they would

1435
00:49:17,349 --> 00:49:15,040
but historically speaking

1436
00:49:18,950 --> 00:49:17,359
there have always been at least some

1437
00:49:19,829 --> 00:49:18,960
people within the pentagon who have been

1438
00:49:23,670 --> 00:49:19,839
interested in

1439
00:49:26,230 --> 00:49:23,680
occult paranormal and strange ideas

1440
00:49:28,710 --> 00:49:26,240
obviously the pentagon is not a monolith

1441
00:49:31,589 --> 00:49:28,720
and i don't think we can

1442
00:49:33,349 --> 00:49:31,599
expect that there'll be one totalitarian

1443
00:49:35,349 --> 00:49:33,359
decision from the top down that we'll

1444
00:49:38,230 --> 00:49:35,359
never speak of this again

1445
00:49:39,829 --> 00:49:38,240
uh my guess would be that like with

1446
00:49:42,309 --> 00:49:39,839
previous flats

1447
00:49:43,349 --> 00:49:42,319
the pentagon leadership will mostly wash

1448
00:49:45,990 --> 00:49:43,359
their hands a bit and

1449
00:49:47,589 --> 00:49:46,000
it'll go back to being some strange

1450
00:49:50,230 --> 00:49:47,599
thing that happens in the background

1451
00:49:51,510 --> 00:49:50,240
from lower level people who maintain an

1452
00:49:53,349 --> 00:49:51,520
interest in it

1453
00:49:56,150 --> 00:49:53,359
i don't really know though a lot of it's

1454
00:49:58,950 --> 00:49:56,160
going to depend on what congress does

1455
00:49:59,829 --> 00:49:58,960
because if the people in congress who

1456
00:50:01,670 --> 00:49:59,839
have become

1457
00:50:04,309 --> 00:50:01,680
increasingly radicalized by media

1458
00:50:06,390 --> 00:50:04,319
coverage and that is something to know

1459
00:50:08,309 --> 00:50:06,400
the radicalization you see in members of

1460
00:50:08,950 --> 00:50:08,319
congress on this issue isn't really due

1461
00:50:12,950 --> 00:50:08,960
to any

1462
00:50:14,710 --> 00:50:12,960
new developments in ufos it's due to the

1463
00:50:15,430 --> 00:50:14,720
new york times and the new yorker

1464
00:50:17,829 --> 00:50:15,440
putting these

1465
00:50:19,190 --> 00:50:17,839
stories right where the congress people

1466
00:50:22,150 --> 00:50:19,200
are going to see them

1467
00:50:25,190 --> 00:50:22,160
and it's especially due to chris mellon

1468
00:50:26,950 --> 00:50:25,200
and his friends lobbying them and saying

1469
00:50:29,109 --> 00:50:26,960
you know we should do something about

1470
00:50:30,950 --> 00:50:29,119
this while pointing to the

1471
00:50:32,790 --> 00:50:30,960
the news stories that they themselves

1472
00:50:33,990 --> 00:50:32,800
have helped get into the newspapers and

1473
00:50:35,910 --> 00:50:34,000
the magazines

1474
00:50:37,829 --> 00:50:35,920
to justify it saying see it's in the

1475
00:50:39,589 --> 00:50:37,839
media we need to do something

1476
00:50:41,030 --> 00:50:39,599
yeah but you put it in the media so

1477
00:50:42,309 --> 00:50:41,040
you're saying you need to do something

1478
00:50:43,430 --> 00:50:42,319
because you put it there

1479
00:50:45,750 --> 00:50:43,440
but a lot of it's going to come down to

1480
00:50:46,390 --> 00:50:45,760
what congress decides to do if for

1481
00:50:49,109 --> 00:50:46,400
example

1482
00:50:50,630 --> 00:50:49,119
uh the congress people actually read the

1483
00:50:53,670 --> 00:50:50,640
stuff that i wrote and say

1484
00:50:55,510 --> 00:50:53,680
hey wait maybe this is a little uh

1485
00:50:57,589 --> 00:50:55,520
problematic and we should back off on

1486
00:50:59,030 --> 00:50:57,599
this then you know it might fizzle out

1487
00:51:02,309 --> 00:50:59,040
and nothing will happen

1488
00:51:05,910 --> 00:51:02,319
if on the other hand marco rubio or

1489
00:51:09,430 --> 00:51:07,270
john moore i got the wrong senator's

1490
00:51:12,069 --> 00:51:09,440
name but if mark warner

1491
00:51:13,430 --> 00:51:12,079
uh yes the current senator uh john

1492
00:51:16,309 --> 00:51:13,440
warner was a former senator

1493
00:51:18,549 --> 00:51:16,319
um anyway if marco rubio and john warner

1494
00:51:21,910 --> 00:51:18,559
did it again mark warner say that

1495
00:51:23,510 --> 00:51:21,920
they're going to uh hold hearings and

1496
00:51:26,309 --> 00:51:23,520
want to

1497
00:51:27,589 --> 00:51:26,319
probe the issue further or if they do

1498
00:51:28,790 --> 00:51:27,599
like harry reid did and start

1499
00:51:31,670 --> 00:51:28,800
appropriating money

1500
00:51:33,030 --> 00:51:31,680
for further research then you know this

1501
00:51:35,510 --> 00:51:33,040
might drag on

1502
00:51:37,030 --> 00:51:35,520
for months or years or what have you it

1503
00:51:38,710 --> 00:51:37,040
really a lot is going to depend on how

1504
00:51:40,950 --> 00:51:38,720
the media react to it

1505
00:51:43,510 --> 00:51:40,960
and how congress decides or doesn't

1506
00:51:45,270 --> 00:51:43,520
decide to go forward after seeing

1507
00:51:46,790 --> 00:51:45,280
the public immediate reaction to the

1508
00:51:48,630 --> 00:51:46,800
report yeah

1509
00:51:50,069 --> 00:51:48,640
it's uh i guess the invisible college

1510
00:51:51,349 --> 00:51:50,079
isn't going anywhere so they're going to

1511
00:51:53,589 --> 00:51:51,359
be trying to

1512
00:51:54,549 --> 00:51:53,599
you know push their narrative going

1513
00:51:58,309 --> 00:51:54,559
forward

1514
00:52:01,030 --> 00:51:58,319
but on the plus side you know

1515
00:52:03,109 --> 00:52:01,040
they can't stick around forever so

1516
00:52:06,470 --> 00:52:03,119
unless the new generation

1517
00:52:09,510 --> 00:52:06,480
um continues to advocate with the

1518
00:52:12,870 --> 00:52:09,520
same tenacity as the previous one

1519
00:52:14,309 --> 00:52:12,880
eventually the um people who are

1520
00:52:16,150 --> 00:52:14,319
ensconced in government

1521
00:52:18,470 --> 00:52:16,160
with an interest in the subject won't be

1522
00:52:19,750 --> 00:52:18,480
there anymore you know we can't

1523
00:52:21,750 --> 00:52:19,760
can't expect the same people from the

1524
00:52:25,109 --> 00:52:21,760
1970s to still be there

1525
00:52:28,710 --> 00:52:25,119
in the 2020s and beyond so um

1526
00:52:29,990 --> 00:52:28,720
so the new generation yeah a lot depends

1527
00:52:32,069 --> 00:52:30,000
on how

1528
00:52:33,750 --> 00:52:32,079
how well the new generation takes up the

1529
00:52:35,750 --> 00:52:33,760
banner i guess

1530
00:52:38,230 --> 00:52:35,760
you know lou elizondo wants to be one of

1531
00:52:41,510 --> 00:52:38,240
the leaders of it and

1532
00:52:45,030 --> 00:52:41,520
it's clear that he doesn't

1533
00:52:48,309 --> 00:52:45,040
have the um the ability to worm

1534
00:52:49,750 --> 00:52:48,319
into the bureaucracy the way previous

1535
00:52:50,950 --> 00:52:49,760
generations did

1536
00:52:53,270 --> 00:52:50,960
you know they kept a lot of their

1537
00:52:53,990 --> 00:52:53,280
strange ideas secret they didn't talk

1538
00:52:57,190 --> 00:52:54,000
about

1539
00:52:58,950 --> 00:52:57,200
the weirdest stuff in public

1540
00:53:00,710 --> 00:52:58,960
and they certainly didn't make a

1541
00:53:01,990 --> 00:53:00,720
spectacle of themselves most of the time

1542
00:53:04,549 --> 00:53:02,000
while they were

1543
00:53:06,069 --> 00:53:04,559
trying to lobby for the cia or the dia

1544
00:53:07,910 --> 00:53:06,079
or what have you to

1545
00:53:09,430 --> 00:53:07,920
spend money investigating the occult the

1546
00:53:10,870 --> 00:53:09,440
paranormal

1547
00:53:12,630 --> 00:53:10,880
they wanted to get it done and they use

1548
00:53:14,150 --> 00:53:12,640
their power to do it but they didn't

1549
00:53:14,630 --> 00:53:14,160
grow about it where people would see it

1550
00:53:17,510 --> 00:53:14,640
and think

1551
00:53:19,030 --> 00:53:17,520
hey wait a second maybe that's kind of

1552
00:53:21,270 --> 00:53:19,040
weird that we're spending all this money

1553
00:53:23,030 --> 00:53:21,280
to hunt psychic space ghosts

1554
00:53:24,710 --> 00:53:23,040
yeah i wonder if maybe things are going

1555
00:53:26,790 --> 00:53:24,720
to backfire because there's been so much

1556
00:53:29,109 --> 00:53:26,800
publicity and so much interest

1557
00:53:30,870 --> 00:53:29,119
in the story and now that what the

1558
00:53:31,430 --> 00:53:30,880
report will come out and it'll just be a

1559
00:53:34,470 --> 00:53:31,440
list of

1560
00:53:35,750 --> 00:53:34,480
unsolved ufo cases and people are going

1561
00:53:37,190 --> 00:53:35,760
to be asking you know what's the big

1562
00:53:39,270 --> 00:53:37,200
deal how did we get here

1563
00:53:40,710 --> 00:53:39,280
and you know i hope people do actually

1564
00:53:41,750 --> 00:53:40,720
you know read your article and look at

1565
00:53:44,309 --> 00:53:41,760
the history

1566
00:53:45,030 --> 00:53:44,319
of what's going on and see just just how

1567
00:53:47,430 --> 00:53:45,040
much

1568
00:53:49,270 --> 00:53:47,440
strangeness and what strange beliefs

1569
00:53:51,829 --> 00:53:49,280
underlie a lot of what's actually going

1570
00:53:56,950 --> 00:53:54,630
it's that uh each iteration has been a

1571
00:53:59,190 --> 00:53:56,960
little less competent and a little less

1572
00:54:00,230 --> 00:53:59,200
powerful than the one before you know

1573
00:54:02,390 --> 00:54:00,240
when robert bigelow

1574
00:54:03,670 --> 00:54:02,400
and mids was doing all of that you know

1575
00:54:06,150 --> 00:54:03,680
they were right there

1576
00:54:07,829 --> 00:54:06,160
with a not a massive program but they

1577
00:54:08,870 --> 00:54:07,839
had a funded program they were producing

1578
00:54:10,230 --> 00:54:08,880
reports

1579
00:54:12,069 --> 00:54:10,240
they had allies throughout the

1580
00:54:15,910 --> 00:54:12,079
government and what have you

1581
00:54:17,910 --> 00:54:15,920
and now we're down to to the stars which

1582
00:54:19,510 --> 00:54:17,920
ended up breaking apart because they

1583
00:54:21,030 --> 00:54:19,520
couldn't keep their story straight long

1584
00:54:23,430 --> 00:54:21,040
enough to get anything

1585
00:54:24,390 --> 00:54:23,440
substantive done we had tom delong

1586
00:54:26,390 --> 00:54:24,400
talking about

1587
00:54:27,750 --> 00:54:26,400
lemuria and psychic space ghosts and

1588
00:54:30,309 --> 00:54:27,760
what have you on

1589
00:54:31,510 --> 00:54:30,319
on the one hand and melon and elizondo

1590
00:54:33,510 --> 00:54:31,520
lobbying for a ufo

1591
00:54:35,030 --> 00:54:33,520
report on the other and now we're down

1592
00:54:38,150 --> 00:54:35,040
to sky fort

1593
00:54:41,510 --> 00:54:38,160
the newest iteration which uh

1594
00:54:44,150 --> 00:54:41,520
elizondo is um ambiguously

1595
00:54:44,630 --> 00:54:44,160
part of he's on their advisory board

1596
00:54:48,470 --> 00:54:44,640
yeah

1597
00:54:50,950 --> 00:54:48,480
and sky for you know so far they

1598
00:54:51,589 --> 00:54:50,960
seem to be completely amateurish about

1599
00:54:53,430 --> 00:54:51,599
it

1600
00:54:55,349 --> 00:54:53,440
they couldn't even manage to get their

1601
00:54:57,430 --> 00:54:55,359
role out right they uh

1602
00:54:59,990 --> 00:54:57,440
stumbled into having tucker carlson

1603
00:55:03,030 --> 00:55:00,000
accidentally reveal their existence

1604
00:55:06,870 --> 00:55:03,040
and then um a reporter managed

1605
00:55:08,470 --> 00:55:06,880
to find all of their secret uh

1606
00:55:10,309 --> 00:55:08,480
information on their website that they

1607
00:55:14,309 --> 00:55:10,319
didn't uh secure very well

1608
00:55:16,870 --> 00:55:14,319
so you know a lot of what

1609
00:55:17,510 --> 00:55:16,880
has happened each time it's a little bit

1610
00:55:19,349 --> 00:55:17,520
less

1611
00:55:20,870 --> 00:55:19,359
organized a little bit more amateurish

1612
00:55:22,950 --> 00:55:20,880
with each round

1613
00:55:24,549 --> 00:55:22,960
as this issue kind of becomes more and

1614
00:55:26,630 --> 00:55:24,559
more diffuse

1615
00:55:27,990 --> 00:55:26,640
and part of that's a good thing because

1616
00:55:29,670 --> 00:55:28,000
you know

1617
00:55:31,510 --> 00:55:29,680
they're stumbling into success mostly

1618
00:55:32,309 --> 00:55:31,520
because the media is helping them to do

1619
00:55:34,390 --> 00:55:32,319
it

1620
00:55:36,230 --> 00:55:34,400
so the media stops covering this like

1621
00:55:38,150 --> 00:55:36,240
it's a national security crisis

1622
00:55:39,670 --> 00:55:38,160
the whole rationale for their existence

1623
00:55:41,990 --> 00:55:39,680
goes away

1624
00:55:43,430 --> 00:55:42,000
but on the other hand the fact that this

1625
00:55:46,789 --> 00:55:43,440
is becoming more diffuse

1626
00:55:48,150 --> 00:55:46,799
and less centered means that it's the

1627
00:55:50,789 --> 00:55:48,160
belief in it is spreading through

1628
00:55:52,710 --> 00:55:50,799
society you know in the surveys

1629
00:55:55,270 --> 00:55:52,720
uh that were taken about belief in these

1630
00:55:57,589 --> 00:55:55,280
ideas uh chapman university for

1631
00:55:58,470 --> 00:55:57,599
uh several years conducted a survey

1632
00:55:59,910 --> 00:55:58,480
about uh

1633
00:56:01,349 --> 00:55:59,920
american fears and beliefs in the

1634
00:56:02,549 --> 00:56:01,359
paranormal and the occult and all that

1635
00:56:04,150 --> 00:56:02,559
sort of thing

1636
00:56:05,990 --> 00:56:04,160
and what you saw in each of those

1637
00:56:08,230 --> 00:56:06,000
surveys is that the number of people who

1638
00:56:11,670 --> 00:56:08,240
were reporting belief in flying saucers

1639
00:56:11,990 --> 00:56:11,680
in ancient astronauts and uh contact

1640
00:56:14,069 --> 00:56:12,000
with

1641
00:56:17,270 --> 00:56:14,079
ghosts the paranormal and all of that

1642
00:56:19,670 --> 00:56:17,280
increased steadily through the 2010s

1643
00:56:22,069 --> 00:56:19,680
and you know chapman university stopped

1644
00:56:25,430 --> 00:56:22,079
conducting that survey so we don't have

1645
00:56:27,430 --> 00:56:25,440
um recent data from the last year or two

1646
00:56:29,349 --> 00:56:27,440
but the trend lines were pretty clear

1647
00:56:31,109 --> 00:56:29,359
and they very clearly follow media

1648
00:56:32,789 --> 00:56:31,119
interest in a subject

1649
00:56:34,710 --> 00:56:32,799
when cable tv was doing a bunch of

1650
00:56:35,910 --> 00:56:34,720
documentaries about ancient astronauts

1651
00:56:39,109 --> 00:56:35,920
and ancient aliens

1652
00:56:40,789 --> 00:56:39,119
you saw a belief in that rise now

1653
00:56:42,710 --> 00:56:40,799
at any one given time there aren't that

1654
00:56:44,789 --> 00:56:42,720
many people watching a cable tv show

1655
00:56:46,470 --> 00:56:44,799
about it there weren't that many people

1656
00:56:48,069 --> 00:56:46,480
watching a cable tv show from louis

1657
00:56:50,630 --> 00:56:48,079
elizondo either

1658
00:56:53,109 --> 00:56:50,640
but what you see is that the

1659
00:56:54,630 --> 00:56:53,119
legitimization process

1660
00:56:56,150 --> 00:56:54,640
that these things are being talked about

1661
00:56:57,990 --> 00:56:56,160
in the media

1662
00:56:59,109 --> 00:56:58,000
helps create this impression that

1663
00:57:00,549 --> 00:56:59,119
there's something serious and

1664
00:57:02,470 --> 00:57:00,559
substantive behind it

1665
00:57:04,789 --> 00:57:02,480
even when it's just a bunch of tall

1666
00:57:07,030 --> 00:57:04,799
tales and ambiguous data that are

1667
00:57:08,230 --> 00:57:07,040
getting thrown out with a bunch of 1940s

1668
00:57:10,950 --> 00:57:08,240
sci-fi theories

1669
00:57:12,789 --> 00:57:10,960
but because the new york times says this

1670
00:57:14,150 --> 00:57:12,799
is important because the new yorker says

1671
00:57:16,230 --> 00:57:14,160
this is important

1672
00:57:18,309 --> 00:57:16,240
because you can see documentaries about

1673
00:57:20,309 --> 00:57:18,319
it on the history channel

1674
00:57:22,390 --> 00:57:20,319
it gets that air of importance that

1675
00:57:24,230 --> 00:57:22,400
becomes self-referential and

1676
00:57:27,349 --> 00:57:24,240
self-perpetuating

1677
00:57:28,069 --> 00:57:27,359
people come to believe that even if they

1678
00:57:29,349 --> 00:57:28,079
just

1679
00:57:31,030 --> 00:57:29,359
lightly think well maybe there's

1680
00:57:32,789 --> 00:57:31,040
something to it they come to that

1681
00:57:34,309 --> 00:57:32,799
conclusion because of the agenda setting

1682
00:57:36,230 --> 00:57:34,319
function of the media

1683
00:57:37,510 --> 00:57:36,240
the media say this is happening and this

1684
00:57:40,069 --> 00:57:37,520
is important therefore

1685
00:57:40,789 --> 00:57:40,079
people at least provisionally accept

1686
00:57:43,430 --> 00:57:40,799
okay

1687
00:57:45,270 --> 00:57:43,440
this is at least as credible as whatever

1688
00:57:48,789 --> 00:57:45,280
is happening on the news

1689
00:57:52,150 --> 00:57:48,799
and so while it's great

1690
00:57:56,710 --> 00:57:52,160
that the uh ufo advocates are not

1691
00:58:00,309 --> 00:57:56,720
nearly as politically

1692
00:58:02,870 --> 00:58:00,319
powerful as they had been in the past

1693
00:58:04,390 --> 00:58:02,880
and the sense of being able to direct

1694
00:58:07,990 --> 00:58:04,400
the functions

1695
00:58:11,349 --> 00:58:08,000
of government and bend uh

1696
00:58:13,990 --> 00:58:11,359
the pentagon to their will it's

1697
00:58:15,430 --> 00:58:14,000
not so good that the reason for that is

1698
00:58:16,630 --> 00:58:15,440
because the ideas that they're

1699
00:58:19,589 --> 00:58:16,640
advocating aren't

1700
00:58:21,349 --> 00:58:19,599
limited to just one small segment of the

1701
00:58:23,270 --> 00:58:21,359
population now but are

1702
00:58:25,030 --> 00:58:23,280
widely believed by anywhere from third

1703
00:58:26,710 --> 00:58:25,040
to half of americans

1704
00:58:28,870 --> 00:58:26,720
yeah and that's you know that's not a

1705
00:58:29,910 --> 00:58:28,880
good thing yeah it's kind of broken out

1706
00:58:31,030 --> 00:58:29,920
from the uh

1707
00:58:32,950 --> 00:58:31,040
you know obviously it's always been a

1708
00:58:36,069 --> 00:58:32,960
thing that your ufo belief but

1709
00:58:37,510 --> 00:58:36,079
uh the legitimization of it is what is

1710
00:58:38,870 --> 00:58:37,520
is kind of spreading now people are

1711
00:58:40,309 --> 00:58:38,880
saying there is definitely something to

1712
00:58:41,270 --> 00:58:40,319
it because i saw it in the new york

1713
00:58:42,870 --> 00:58:41,280
times

1714
00:58:44,390 --> 00:58:42,880
my hope here is that there will kind of

1715
00:58:47,670 --> 00:58:44,400
be a second wave

1716
00:58:49,349 --> 00:58:47,680
of journalism in this after

1717
00:58:51,589 --> 00:58:49,359
the report is released and we kind of

1718
00:58:54,390 --> 00:58:51,599
get a clearer picture of what's actually

1719
00:58:56,150 --> 00:58:54,400
uh being going on and that people will

1720
00:58:58,390 --> 00:58:56,160
some more serious journalists inc

1721
00:58:59,829 --> 00:58:58,400
including hopefully the new york times

1722
00:59:01,750 --> 00:58:59,839
will actually look into

1723
00:59:03,109 --> 00:59:01,760
uh the story with a bit more of a

1724
00:59:06,069 --> 00:59:03,119
critical eye

1725
00:59:07,910 --> 00:59:06,079
and a bit better perspective you know

1726
00:59:11,750 --> 00:59:07,920
the new york times used

1727
00:59:13,589 --> 00:59:11,760
as their ufo reporter from 2017 to 2020

1728
00:59:16,390 --> 00:59:13,599
leslie keane

1729
00:59:18,150 --> 00:59:16,400
and you know where she ended up she's

1730
00:59:19,030 --> 00:59:18,160
not going to be reporting on ufos for

1731
00:59:21,990 --> 00:59:19,040
the new york times

1732
00:59:25,109 --> 00:59:22,000
anytime soon because she is getting a

1733
00:59:28,069 --> 00:59:25,119
movie made of her life story by hbo max

1734
00:59:29,910 --> 00:59:28,079
and she's joined robert bigelow at the

1735
00:59:30,789 --> 00:59:29,920
bigelow institute for consciousness

1736
00:59:33,030 --> 00:59:30,799
studies

1737
00:59:34,549 --> 00:59:33,040
to study ghosts and the paranormal in

1738
00:59:36,710 --> 00:59:34,559
the afterlife

1739
00:59:38,789 --> 00:59:36,720
yes things are coming full circle it's

1740
00:59:39,109 --> 00:59:38,799
uh it's quite remarkable just uh you

1741
00:59:41,990 --> 00:59:39,119
know

1742
00:59:43,910 --> 00:59:42,000
it does revolve around a very small

1743
00:59:45,990 --> 00:59:43,920
number of people and very much around

1744
00:59:48,630 --> 00:59:46,000
around robert bigelow

1745
00:59:49,990 --> 00:59:48,640
uh so it's uh i think a lot of people

1746
00:59:51,270 --> 00:59:50,000
don't even realize this and a lot of

1747
00:59:53,030 --> 00:59:51,280
people who have been following the story

1748
00:59:55,190 --> 00:59:53,040
haven't even heard of bigelow

1749
00:59:56,710 --> 00:59:55,200
and well they don't know the most well

1750
00:59:58,069 --> 00:59:56,720
yeah for the most part the media have

1751
01:00:00,309 --> 00:59:58,079
kept him out

1752
01:00:01,750 --> 01:00:00,319
i mean when the new york times when

1753
01:00:04,549 --> 01:00:01,760
blumenthal and keane

1754
01:00:05,829 --> 01:00:04,559
uh did that story the initial story you

1755
01:00:08,230 --> 01:00:05,839
know they

1756
01:00:09,270 --> 01:00:08,240
gave bigelow a very very narrow part of

1757
01:00:13,190 --> 01:00:09,280
that story

1758
01:00:15,910 --> 01:00:13,200
um and to my mind you know purposely

1759
01:00:16,710 --> 01:00:15,920
limited uh discussion of his influence

1760
01:00:18,069 --> 01:00:16,720
and

1761
01:00:20,309 --> 01:00:18,079
of course the strange ideas that he

1762
01:00:22,470 --> 01:00:20,319
advocated you know because

1763
01:00:25,030 --> 01:00:22,480
like ralph blumenthal said new york

1764
01:00:28,710 --> 01:00:25,040
times readers wouldn't have accepted it

1765
01:00:32,069 --> 01:00:28,720
and it's been a dangerous concept

1766
01:00:34,549 --> 01:00:32,079
in journalism this idea that we should

1767
01:00:35,990 --> 01:00:34,559
shape stories around what audiences

1768
01:00:38,150 --> 01:00:36,000
expect to hear

1769
01:00:40,069 --> 01:00:38,160
and not what they need to hear now to

1770
01:00:42,470 --> 01:00:40,079
their credit 60 minutes did do a story

1771
01:00:44,470 --> 01:00:42,480
with robert bigelow once

1772
01:00:47,030 --> 01:00:44,480
and then they went back and did that ufo

1773
01:00:47,670 --> 01:00:47,040
story with uh louis elizondo and chris

1774
01:00:50,069 --> 01:00:47,680
mellon

1775
01:00:52,710 --> 01:00:50,079
and never once mentioned their strange

1776
01:00:53,750 --> 01:00:52,720
ideas about ultra-terrestrials or space

1777
01:00:56,230 --> 01:00:53,760
spooks

1778
01:00:57,829 --> 01:00:56,240
never once talked about how robert

1779
01:00:59,589 --> 01:00:57,839
bigelow

1780
01:01:02,470 --> 01:00:59,599
you know essentially created this

1781
01:01:04,630 --> 01:01:02,480
program to hunt for

1782
01:01:06,630 --> 01:01:04,640
ghosts and werewolves and what have you

1783
01:01:08,870 --> 01:01:06,640
on his utah ranch

1784
01:01:09,750 --> 01:01:08,880
so there is this huge failure in

1785
01:01:11,670 --> 01:01:09,760
journalism

1786
01:01:12,789 --> 01:01:11,680
where the journalists are trying to make

1787
01:01:14,950 --> 01:01:12,799
their stories sound

1788
01:01:17,030 --> 01:01:14,960
serious by purposely cutting out stuff

1789
01:01:20,150 --> 01:01:17,040
that they should be reporting

1790
01:01:21,430 --> 01:01:20,160
which is you know even if you do believe

1791
01:01:24,069 --> 01:01:21,440
that there is a serious issue to

1792
01:01:25,990 --> 01:01:24,079
investigate the people who are doing it

1793
01:01:27,670 --> 01:01:26,000
are not necessarily the ones you'd want

1794
01:01:30,710 --> 01:01:27,680
to be doing it because

1795
01:01:33,589 --> 01:01:30,720
they have certain biases and

1796
01:01:34,470 --> 01:01:33,599
very strange ideas that are coloring the

1797
01:01:37,349 --> 01:01:34,480
shape of

1798
01:01:37,910 --> 01:01:37,359
the results they're reporting yeah well

1799
01:01:39,750 --> 01:01:37,920
i uh

1800
01:01:41,589 --> 01:01:39,760
i certainly hope that uh more

1801
01:01:42,630 --> 01:01:41,599
journalists do cover that aspect of it

1802
01:01:44,390 --> 01:01:42,640
and it's something that i've been

1803
01:01:45,990 --> 01:01:44,400
increasingly bringing up when when

1804
01:01:48,150 --> 01:01:46,000
people talk to me about this

1805
01:01:50,390 --> 01:01:48,160
because i think it's a very important

1806
01:01:53,109 --> 01:01:50,400
part of understanding

1807
01:01:55,750 --> 01:01:53,119
uh what's been going on in the past and

1808
01:01:56,870 --> 01:01:55,760
what's going on now with the report and

1809
01:01:58,870 --> 01:01:56,880
understanding what's going to happen

1810
01:02:01,349 --> 01:01:58,880
over the next year or two as

1811
01:02:02,630 --> 01:02:01,359
things kind of shake out so it's going

1812
01:02:04,470 --> 01:02:02,640
to be quite interesting

1813
01:02:07,270 --> 01:02:04,480
what do you think is going to going to

1814
01:02:11,029 --> 01:02:07,280
happen when the report drops

1815
01:02:12,789 --> 01:02:11,039
well i think yeah i think that there

1816
01:02:15,430 --> 01:02:12,799
will be a bunch of stories in the news

1817
01:02:17,750 --> 01:02:15,440
and most of them will probably say

1818
01:02:18,150 --> 01:02:17,760
something along the lines of the report

1819
01:02:22,150 --> 01:02:18,160
was

1820
01:02:24,230 --> 01:02:22,160
ambiguous didn't say very much and that

1821
01:02:26,069 --> 01:02:24,240
the usual ufo suspects are very

1822
01:02:27,670 --> 01:02:26,079
disappointed but are calling for further

1823
01:02:29,910 --> 01:02:27,680
investigation

1824
01:02:31,430 --> 01:02:29,920
and then conveniently uh linked to

1825
01:02:34,390 --> 01:02:31,440
whatever products and services they're

1826
01:02:35,910 --> 01:02:34,400
offering to help investigate

1827
01:02:37,670 --> 01:02:35,920
all right well we'll see we'll see

1828
01:02:39,829 --> 01:02:37,680
hopefully we'll come out in a few days

1829
01:02:41,670 --> 01:02:39,839
uh well i want to thank you very much

1830
01:02:44,789 --> 01:02:41,680
for this very interesting conversation

1831
01:02:46,789 --> 01:02:44,799
and yeah it's uh

1832
01:02:48,870 --> 01:02:46,799
it's an ongoing story and maybe we can

1833
01:02:50,630 --> 01:02:48,880
talk again uh sometime after the report

1834
01:02:51,829 --> 01:02:50,640
and see how things actually do shake out

1835
01:02:53,349 --> 01:02:51,839
in the future

1836
01:02:55,190 --> 01:02:53,359
well certainly it's great speaking with